Women in public/children in public

[ButtHoleinOne]

Children should be seen and not heard... I'm only just now realising how much that was designed to fuck over women too.

There are two threads now about "parenting" in public which sounds neutral but is obviously not neutral as women do the majority of parenting in married heterosexual (and obviously lesbian) relationships. And even after the relationships most single parents are women.

Women shouldn't "read too loudly" they also shouldn't give their children electronic devices, they should read to them instead, but in such a way as to not make a fucking sound and bother another human.

They also should not be pathetic and ask for a seat if they are pregnant or holding a baby on the train. Except for when they do and then they are in the wrong and should just bat there eyelids in a damsel in distress style.

Women should not let let anyone else in the cafe know they have children by basically requiring the children to act like tiny adults (but the sort of adults who don't speak or eat).

If the women fail at any of the above they should be met with filthy looks and be called a selfish cow on a pre ting website with mum in the title.

That's a good point.
I have started telling my children they are people too, and that in the same way they shouldn't push past people it is not acceptable for people to push past them.

I've started noticing this and it's so rude.

I am so happy to see this thread too. It's summing up everything I have been thinking while browsing active threads in recent weeks.

Sparrow, I am from NI and I completely recognise what you are saying about this seeming more like a UK/England phenomenon (I live in London, obv from username, and this is not something I worry about when I am with my kids at home at all, yet here I am constantly aware that people probably think I'm being a huge twat all the time, just for existing, and no matter which 'style' of parenting I am doing at that moment).

I have the temerity to do things like commute with my two toddlers on the tube, at rush hour, up to 4 days a week. My DH does the same, and if we are separated on a busy tube with one child each I can literally watch the difference in treatment that we get. He doesn't worry at all about taking up space, people offer him extra space, everyone grins at him and the lucky child on his knee really indulgently, they chat, complete strangers give him FOOD even! Meanwhile I bow and scrape to thank the person who has given me a seat (or even some days the person who would have got my seat if they had been quicker to board seems the most put out of all!) and spend the journey praying for quiet and that anyone my really friendly, outgoing children might say hello to wont be a huge dick about it. If we are commuting together, DH wants to just casually jump on to whatever train, wherever. I insist on going to the 'quiet' end and waiting for a relatively quiet train so there's less chance of my inadvertently irritating someone by existing. It's so depressing.

The other thing that really annoys me about this is how internalised it is for lots of mothers/parents. On threads where things like this comes up, so many posts just sound like everyone expects its totally natural to find children irritating and that they should be seen and not heard. I can, with my hand on my heart, say that children in public have never irritated me, even when I was young, free, single and had no kids in my life at all. I've always either just happily ignored or even (god forbid) grinned and said hello to people's children in all kinds of public situations, it's never cost me a thought. Maybe this was the result of growing up in NI, but I find the attitude to children where I live in London not only grim, but also just completely unexpected. I had no idea people were wandering about feeling angry about this all the time and being horrible to everyone.

I learnt a new phrase the other day "performance parenting". I didn't know something like that even existed. It always takes a bit of a "performance" to keep a child's attention. It's ridiculous how judgy people have become.

That's a good point hydrangea! Talking about the weather and your boss Ina no tone voice to your five year old isn't the best way to keep their attention.

I do sometimes wonder if mothers interpret a complete lack of interest in their children as some sort of judgement.

I never understand this idea that parents want everyone to look at their children with adoration. In the same way that I imagine most people aren't that interested in a toddler they don't know, I'm not really interested in anyone but my toddler when I'm looking after her. People loudly sigh and tut in a passive aggressive manner, and stop me in the street to give me unsolicited and crap 'advice' - probably because I look younger because I'm short, but I'm in my 30s. I'd bloody love a lack of interest.

You are right, hydrangea, there is an element of performance that is necessary to keep young children's attention. I know that the more interesting I make it, the longer I can draw out a meal, the more she will eat etc. Or the longer she'll be happy in our seat on a train journey. It's part of what makes it so tiring.

Exactly basket. I don't know how Lass went from that to actually thinking we're all annoyed we're being ignored

I expect there are some mothers who want attention, but I imagine they wanted it beforehand, and mothers who didn't continue in that same way. I doubt having a baby changes that aspect of personality.

From a conversational point of view, I know others aren't going to be as interested in the minutiae of what my children are up to, but I was always aware of that about my job, which is something I can't say for everyone. But I do see a distinction made when some people I know talk about mutual friends: 'all they talk about is their baby' when previously they only ever talked about work, but this was never commented on. Similarly 'they just don't do anything but baby stuff now, god, you can actually get a babysitter' when previously they had periods of working intensely that meant they didn't socialise much for similar length stretches that weren't seen as negative at all.

Exactly basket. I don't know how Lass went from that to actually thinking we're all annoyed we're being ignored

I don't know you went from what I said to "we're all annoyed we're being ignored".

I have had a woman on a train pointedly saying to her annoying child with whom I wasn't engaging that "the lady isn't interested in you darling".

"You are right, hydrangea, there is an element of performance that is necessary to keep young children's attention. I know that the more interesting I make it, the longer I can draw out a meal, the more she will eat etc. Or the longer she'll be happy in our seat on a train journey. It's part of what makes it so tiring."

"I learnt a new phrase the other day "performance parenting". I didn't know something like that even existed. It always takes a bit of a "performance" to keep a child's attention. It's ridiculous how judgy people have become."

BasketOfDeplorables and hydrangea nailed it. Thank you .

"The UK does seem to have an issue with the idea that children are people too - and by association, parents (and so especially mothers). "

Not the UK but South East England. Everywhere else people are markedly nicer, happier and smilier toward families with youngish children. IME.

Great post OP, it's not something I had ever really thought about before but something that's quite natural to me as a childless person!

I get a busy commuter train into London every morning and I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't get irritated if their is a parent and child talking to each other when the train is otherwise quiet. I think it's lovely to see a 2 year old taking an interest in everything around them and their mum indulging their curiosity rather than trying to shush them.

The same way that when I've been near women with children in coffee shops and they have apologised to me for their child being anything other than silent, I've told them it's absolutely fine and nothing to worry about and that children can't be expected to be perfect "seen but not heard". Kids chatting and babbling and asking endless questions is adorable. Kids tantruming in public is normal and unavoidable.

I get a busy commuter train into London every morning and I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't get irritated if their is a parent and child talking to each other

I have lots of childfree friends and acquaintances who moan about children on rush hour trains. It infuriates me. I regularly used to take my DC2 on rush hour trains because she had hospital appointments in town. But of course we were just getting in the way of all the "important" people going to their "important" jobs!

I always get confused by the irritation at little children on rush hour trains. Who would plan a journey specifically to be on a packed, more expensive train if it wasn't necessary?

I always get confused by the irritation at little children on rush hour trains. Who would plan a journey specifically to be on a packed, more expensive train if it wasn't necessary?

Well quite. Not to mention the fact that why is a child's reason for needing to be on that train seen as less important than other peoples?

I am also glad you started this thread op. I feel like parents but mums in particular cannot win.

As a pp poster says, you have to talk to your children to stop them from getting bored and playing up and if no one ever talks to their children or takes them anywhere how the bloody hell will they ever learn anything.

I also don't get the vitriol against parents who complain about people parking in p&c spaces. Yes, there are some people who need to use them, elderly people/ people with disabilities but don't qualify for a bb/ heavily pregnant women but generally people who take these spaces when they don't have a child are just lazy, entitled twats. Ultimately, it is a shop's decision whether to provide these and they are for people with young children to use.

I have had a woman on a train pointedly saying to her annoying child with whom I wasn't engaging that "the lady isn't interested in you darling"

Ignoring a child who is trying to engage with you makes you a bit of a nob. I wouldn't say you were being judgemental though, just a nob.

I usually engage with children who are trying to get my attention, and will smile (or pull faces) etc. But sometimes I just don't feel like it or I'm in my own thoughts (often necessary on a packed morning train, it's the only way to survive) and the joy of them not being your own children is that you aren't obliged to engage with them. Maybe I'm a nob on occasion...

Performance parenting is definitely - IME - a thing, but it isn't just reading a book using funny voices or pointing out interesting things from the train window. It's something very different but the phrase has been coopted to cover normal, engaged parenting done in public

Performance parenting is definitely - IME - a thing

Well, if it is a 'thing' as you say, perhaps it's because parents, mainly mothers, feel as if they need to put on a show that they are doing a good job because everyone judges them whatever they do? Just a thought.

Well quite. Not to mention the fact that why is a child's reason for needing to be on that train seen as less important than other peoples?

Exactly! And given the route I take, there are really only two reasons a person would take their child on a commuter train - to go to Guys & St Thomas' Hospital, or to go into childcare more local to the parents place of work. Two extremely valid reasons - although I couldn't care less if the parents were just getting an early start on a day out either. They are just as entitled to be on that train and existing as I am.

But sometimes I just don't feel like it or I'm in my own thoughts (often necessary on a packed morning train, it's the only way to survive) and the joy of them not being your own children is that you aren't obliged to engage with them. Maybe I'm a nob on occasion...

I was out this afternoon walking along a street with a narrow pavement. Wide enough for 2 people to walk abreast or for 2 people to pass each other but not enough for 3. I saw a couple pushing a pushchair coming towards me and moved as far as I could to the traffic side so the pushchair could pass me away from the traffic. I assumed the parent who wasn't pushing the pushchair would for the nanosecond it would take to pass me drop behind her partner- but no she just kept walking and I was expected to step off the pavement.

Miffer your extremely rude comment rather proves my point. It is not enough that I sit quietly, minding my own business, not impinging at all on what the parent and child is doing but I should engage if the child wants to. No I won't. As Oleanna says I might smile or pass a few words if I feel like it. If I don't.

The irony is of course I read on MN endless complaints of how women are socialised to be nice- clearly in your case you escaped that - but you think you are entitled to demand a complete stranger should engage with a child just because that child wants to.

Performance parenting is definitely - IME - a thing, but it isn't just reading a book using funny voices or pointing out interesting things from the train window. It's something very different but the phrase has been coopted to cover normal, engaged parenting done in public

Oh it absolutely is a thing- it is the looking around to try to catch the eye of anyone nearby -the sort of expectant looking for approval.

Lass to be honest with you you sound pretty angry. Some people are nobs, parents or not. Some people behave like nobs every now and then even when they're not - in fact that's most everyone I believe.

This is not a thread of poster after poster passing very vocal judgement on your desire not to engage with the children of others - in fact Miffer was pretty balanced IMO - like I say, everyone's a nob in someone's eyes from time to time.

But drop into one of those mother-bashing threads that inspired this one, then you'll see who it is who can REALLY do no right on MN; who is lambasted from all angles the second they dare leave the house with their children; and you'll wonder where the thread is attacking you that has made you so angry.

Performance parenting is definitely - IME - a thing

Oh it absolutely is a thing- it is the looking around to try to catch the eye of anyone nearby -the sort of expectant looking for approval.

These statements are fascinating me. Isn't much of this thread really about people's differing perceptions of what is going on when a parent is chatting/reading to/otherwise engaging with a child in public?

What I mean is, you cannot possibly know for absolute certain that a parent who is, e.g. reading a book with voices, and then occasionally looking around a room is doing that because they are putting on a performance and then looking around for an adoring audience of other adults.

So, what makes all the people who post on these threads make that set of assumptions about (mostly) mothers?

Isn't it just as likely that the reasons for these behaviours are one of the many (imo, more plausible) alternative explanations offered by others on this thread? e.g. they are keeping their children busy/entertained, it's just their normal way of interacting with their child, they're looking around (the irony!) to check that they are not annoying the crap out of anyone?

I was thinking about this thread today, and the ones that inspired it... and realised maybe we're looking at it the wrong way round.

All of the mother-bashers citing "pp" as problematic, are assuming that the performing parent is doing it for their benefit I.e the child is an irrelevance- the point is the parenting is for observers to be impressed.

It speaks volumes about the egocentricity of contemporary society, that a grown person can believe that an unknown mother is mothering for THEIR attention, rather than that of their child.

IYSWIM?

I see entirely what you mean, QueenN.