Women in public/children in public

[ButtHoleinOne]

Children should be seen and not heard... I'm only just now realising how much that was designed to fuck over women too.

There are two threads now about "parenting" in public which sounds neutral but is obviously not neutral as women do the majority of parenting in married heterosexual (and obviously lesbian) relationships. And even after the relationships most single parents are women.

Women shouldn't "read too loudly" they also shouldn't give their children electronic devices, they should read to them instead, but in such a way as to not make a fucking sound and bother another human.

They also should not be pathetic and ask for a seat if they are pregnant or holding a baby on the train. Except for when they do and then they are in the wrong and should just bat there eyelids in a damsel in distress style.

Women should not let let anyone else in the cafe know they have children by basically requiring the children to act like tiny adults (but the sort of adults who don't speak or eat).

If the women fail at any of the above they should be met with filthy looks and be called a selfish cow on a pre ting website with mum in the title.

I was the thinking the same as I read them and then got the bus back from nursery yesterday.

A woman asked someone to help her lift her pram onto the bus as it wasn't close to the kerb. The bus driver told her snappily that she was taking too much time and the bus was leaving. Then on the next bus (as the first was full), a baby was whinging, not even crying (mine was quiet for once) and a woman very obviously put her fingers in her ears. Of course she may have had reasons to, but it's still stressful. And I was only on the bus because the station has so many steps I can't do it with a buggy and there's no lift. And that's just using public transport.

Olenna Challenge Accepted!

I was upstairs on a bus yesterday with my 8 yo son and 2 year old daughter, my son was sat next to my mum and was barely talking and my daughter was chattering to me in normal toddler way, I was chattering back to her and my mum. Not performance parenting just talking. Neither were shouting/screaming/moving around. As an elderly gentleman got off the bus he said to me "it's like a bloody zoo up here". This was because I guess I didn't stop my daughter from talking. I really don't know what I was meant to have done.

Spot on OP :-(

Look forward to the report back Dervel!

Make sure you do ALL the voices, Dervel!

The expectations around children in public disproportionately affect women, so deaerves some thinking from a feminist perspective. Childcare (and care of the elderly) seems to be thought of as something intelligent people don't do. It's treated as something that isn't important and should be kept out of the way of busy people who are Doing Important Things.

I often see on here the idea that people without children (even if they're just without them for that specific time) shouldn't be burdened with anything to do with them. So they should be able to go to a cafe without hearing any children, or the woman who had to take her nappy home with her from her friend's house - because baby rubbish is just too disgusting to go in a wheelie bin.

Someone said on here that contraception has made us more protective of our children. I wonder if something similar is going on here. The frequent refrain is 'You chose to have children'. Children don't seem to be viewed as smaller people but as some sort of irritating lifestyle choice rather than the next generation that they are.

Oh I can break out the voices and then some! I have to be careful my story voice invariably attracts more children than just the one I come in with when ds and I make a trip to the library!

I think that may well be a factor, ISay. I've experienced that kind of attitude of 'it's your choice' about breastfeeding. As in women are choosing to breastfeed in public, rather than in private, when actually they just happen to be in public when they need to feed a baby.

I also wonder if it's something to do with the fact that we have few if any memories of early childhood, so perhaps we don't include that period in our sense of self, so see children as something other.

I agree- this has been a big issue for me as I use public transport a lot. I find that however much I try, I just can't make me and my children small/quiet/invisible enough to be acceptable. It's really affected my mental health

How many do you have? I have 3 and I feel your pain as I too use public transport a lot. It's soul destroying.

I am glad to read this, I found those threads so fucking depressing. I have probably been quietly judged for doing both... ds still isn't talking at 19 months so I spend lots of time chattering away to him to try and get him going and yes, that can be a bit, 'Look, there's the donkey, do you remember we saw one at that other place? Blah blah blah donkey blah' - because I am trying to help him. And at the other end of the scale, I have put an episode of Hey Duggee onto my phone for him because I just need five minutes to gulp my coffee down before we go and I get judged for interacting with him again.

Sometimes it feels like I try so fucking hard with this every day, and I just can't win. I had PND and can be a little anxious so it does sometimes get to me. I took a little while to get the nerve up to go to the supermarket with ds today, for instance. Because last time he had a tantrum and I got tutted at - no help of course - and I almost cried.

Excellent thread. I got a disapproving look by a woman sitting next to me and DD when having lunch at a cafe earlier today, and that's exactly what I needed to read.

You feel so on your own, don't you? I had to get on a bus with DS mid tantrum the other day and I said to the two ladies opposite me 'I am so sorry about this. If there were any other way to get home, I'd use that.' And they told me not to worry about it and it almost made me cry because l had been expecting irritation.

Spudlet, there is a brilliant book by Jill Murphy called Meltdown about a tantrum in a supermarket. My children think it is hilarious and it is very sympathetic to mothers.

I shall have to have a look for that. Trouble is, he's a fairly big lad despite being very young, so I suspect people think he's older than he is and therefore judge him (well, me) when he is (for example) hurling himself to the ground because I have cruelly and heartlessly insisted on holding hands or prevented him from taking the melons off the shelf and using them as footballs (unreasonable wench that I am).

A lifetime of being conditioned not to make a scene is suddenly overturned entirely by someone who has precisely no fucks to give, and I suppose that's bound to be tough. I suspect this is not something that men have such a problem with as a group (although I know individuals who would be mortified). We are after all supposed to keep quiet and not make a fuss, as women, lest we be judged as 'shrill'...

Also, you really can't win. If you interact with your children, you are performance parenting, if they're happy and you're reading, you're ignoring them. Finding the balance is impossible.

Exactly! Whatever you do, someone will have the hump about it. I'm sure I got some side-eye today because we were at the zoo and I was telling ds to come and see the Agouti (because he liked them last time we went). What can you do?

Most of the time I'm fairly good at giving no (or at least fairly few) fucks, but some days that's harder than others. And it is so lonely, like you say.

How old is your DS?

I went to meet an old colleague for coffee the other day, and we just went into an Italian cafe we happened to pass. The waiter was so lovely to us because DD was there. She showed her all the cakes they had and picked her up and talked to her, gave her her pad so she could 'do a drawing' for her. Then the owner came to say hello and refused to put DD's biscuits on the bill, and gave her more to take away with her. My friend asked if people were always so nice when you have a baby and I almost wanted to cry, because actually it's the first time in ages where I haven't been made to feel like a horrible nuisance in everyone's way. I'm not depressed, and I'm not even a sensitive person, really, I tend to just file people under 'twat' and get on with my day normally, but I've always had people with a sense of humour around to lighten the load a bit.

19 months. He's a lovely boy, and chatters away in his own little way, but without many words yet so I just babble away to try and help. He is also a strong-willed little boy, with firm views on hand holding (very bad, very boring, to be resisted at all costs) and not being allowed to be in full charge of his direction of travel (a clear breach of his human rights). We are learning about the art of compromise and not flinging ourselves to the floor every five minutes, but it takes time [shrugs] I fully expect to have it cracked by the time he turns 30 though.

How about yours?

I was literally just talking about this. Excellent post.

6, 4, and 3. Your DS sounds lovely and my DS would totally agree with him on the hand holding.

Basket, and I empathise. It's the devaluing of the work that parents especially mothers do. We're not bringing up new doctors, archaeologists, barristers, athletes, teachers, bus drivers, engineers, etc. No, we're just in the way of Important People.

I'm so glad you've said this OP. I saw that thread about the woman reading aloud to her child in a cafe and I thought 'oh god, that's me! How embarrassing. I do that all the time.' I don't do it to show off my amazing parenting, I do it cos I have a toddler and a baby to entertain. But then I couldn't work out what I'm supposed to do. I'm such a terrible people pleaser. I really must stop now. I have spent far too much time worrying about what other people think. So thank you for making realise that it's not me.

Oh Lordy I'm so glad I saw this thread. I commented early on the performance parenting one thinking it would be more lighthearted than it was!

I'm just going to mark my place here so I can read some intelligent comment on the topic.

Thank you