Women in public/children in public

[ButtHoleinOne]

Children should be seen and not heard... I'm only just now realising how much that was designed to fuck over women too.

There are two threads now about "parenting" in public which sounds neutral but is obviously not neutral as women do the majority of parenting in married heterosexual (and obviously lesbian) relationships. And even after the relationships most single parents are women.

Women shouldn't "read too loudly" they also shouldn't give their children electronic devices, they should read to them instead, but in such a way as to not make a fucking sound and bother another human.

They also should not be pathetic and ask for a seat if they are pregnant or holding a baby on the train. Except for when they do and then they are in the wrong and should just bat there eyelids in a damsel in distress style.

Women should not let let anyone else in the cafe know they have children by basically requiring the children to act like tiny adults (but the sort of adults who don't speak or eat).

If the women fail at any of the above they should be met with filthy looks and be called a selfish cow on a pre ting website with mum in the title.

Yeah, it kinda is like that, isn't it?

Whenever children are excluded from something, there's a high chance women are excluded, too, because, well, someone has to take care of the children, and it probably won't be a man.

It could be seen as an extension of men not doing any childcare whatsoever; they also feel entitled to be sheltered from children and any discomfort associated with children in the public space.

Just want ready-made adult male heirs and workforce delivered to their doorstep, in other words.

Yes, I have learnt that it is not acceptable to read a child the same book a few times. Or use voices... I've not been around long but has MN always been so hostile about these things?

I've only really realised how unfriendly people can be if you have children since having a baby myself. I just assumed that most people would treat it as the ordinary part of life it is.

Yup.

Similarly, places that don't provide decent changing facilities, or even doors that you can get through easily with a pram are essentially filtering out women customers (as well as customers with mobility issues)

I don't think you can win as a woman. Whatever you do, someone, somewhere will disapprove of your parenting techniques. Not your male partners, of course, just yours. It's wearing at times, trying to please EVERYONE whilst simultaneously keeping your child happy/quiet.

It's depressing.
It brings to mind the list of the"good girl" attributes from the book The curse of the good girl.

I have learnt that it is not acceptable to read a child the same book a few times

What? Reading the same book over and over is good for children's intelligence. Especially if you change one bit here and there. The children's listening and cognitive skills improve.

Do mothers get hassled in public, by strangers about their child's behaviour?

Ugh, I couldn't help but bail into one or two of the threads you're citing with a real chip on my shoulder for exactly the reasons you describe; it makes me so angry! Women are allowed out with their children as long as they appreciate that parenting (women's work) is not as important as what everyone else is doing in public places, so will only be tolerated if it can be undertaken at no inconvenience to anyone else. Or else you should lock yourself away!

I get it most from my relatives dervel. In public, it's more disapproving looks and passive aggressive comments- this is england, after all

I think we're coming at this from different angles. The thread I saw about reading to children in public was regarding someone making a rather concerted effort to garner attention for the fact that she was reading to her child - and on the same thread another poster gave an example of a father doing the same thing over a meal.

That said, I agree, that in the main it seems that women are constantly wrong-footed by societal expectations and find themselves "damned if they do, and damned if they don't". It reminds me of my school days many centuries ago when most early teen boys in my class would find it hilarious to ask any of the girls in the class, "Can I touch you?" If you said no, then you were a 'frigid bitch' and if you said 'yes' they'd grab your boobs and call you a slag/whore/slut.

My favourite one, although it was a while ago, was that people mothers should not go food shopping with children when other people are likely to be on their lunch break. Barmey.

Dervel - DD once had a melt-down about going into a dance class. I was trying to handle the situation in full view of the other parents. One tried to help (but made things much worse, though I appreciated the effort). Most just ignored me or flashed sympathetic glances. One father strode across the waiting room, stood right up close to me and told me to remove my child to the street so he didn't have to listen to the noise any more.

I would bet both my children, my house, and my cat that if DH had been there that man would not spoken to him like he spoke to me. 100% certain of that.

Yep! As someone new to MN, sitting reading active posts today, I'm wondering if I should just stay indoors with my toddler for the foreseeable to avoid insulting anyone who should choose to use public transport/cafes/anywhere outdoors. It must be exhausting to get so worked up about what other people are doing all the time

My newborn son squeaked through my cousins wedding ceremony and another 3 month old made noise through my dads funeral. My cousin and her husband love their wedding video with the squeaky baby and when the mum apologies to my mum, my mum said my dad would have been the first one to pick and play with a baby.

But other people reacted horribly! Without being too "Handsmade Tale" about it children are a massive part of society and should be active in it. Obviously there are places and times it is inappropriate to have children but with those few exceptions children should be seen and heard.

Personally, I don't give a fuck what people think. I'm a loud parent/mother & I parent in public. I also don't give a shit about the British class system. There are so many wannabe MC mummies, trying to keep up appearances, by putting a charade on of the perfect family and home. Boak.

Sadly, you're bang on. British - specifically English - mothers continue to have the 'stiff British upper lip' mentality thrust upon them. It's frowned upon to have any personality of your own & sheep farm/sycophant valley is order of the day.

No wonder MH is shockingly poor. No wonder there are so many emotionally stunted individuals.

Yep, Roly is bang on. You should always remember that other people in public always have precedence - they may have gone into a busy coffee shop for a quiet read of their book, or to use it as a free office, so it is selfish of me to think that I can take a toddler in there to have lunch.

I've talked about the judgement you get in public with DP and he said he has only had it very rarely, and has noticed the difference in how women with their children are treated.

Do mothers get hassled in public, by strangers about their child's behaviour?

Yes. I've been told by a stranger that I needed to let my boy "be a boy" because I wouldn't let him him run up and down the platform. In reality I was trying to keep him away from slightly drunk looking guy who said the above!!

I've also been told by various people on the stranger to acquaintance spectrum that sons need fathers. Which is always helpful when you don't have one spare lying around!!

Oleanna, that is awful. I hope you have him a piece of your mind.

Ok asked and answered, I'm a single father and don't get one iota of unpleasantness when I'm out with my 4 year old. People are either in their bubble or very friendly. It really is night and day for men and women in almost every area isn't it?

The angle I take on this is that the subjects of those threads were being really bloody annoying, and rude, but they just so happened to be women. I'd be pissed off if it were blokes in their place, but it was women. Should we not call people out on their behaviour because it would be anti-feminist to criticise the behaviour of a mother? That to me is where discrimination occurs.

Dervel, DP and I have talked about this as people generally act very impressed that he's taken his daughter to the park, or wherever. I find the passive aggressive sighs and tuts, the comments and the unwanted 'advice' pretty constant.

It doesn't stop me doing things, but I do spend most of my time just with my 1 year old, so sometimes the only interaction I have all day (except with DP) is quite negative. But I am quite self assured and didn't suffer with PND so I can see how it can be much worse.

CeeBeeBee - unfortunately not - I swept half dressed DD up and left the venue with only a "hope you feel good about yourself now" muttered to him.... Proto-feminist DD then calmed down and got agitated at what jsut happened ("But mummy, he had no right to tell you to leave!") but honestly I felt too ashamed to go back in again. (I've since spent a lot of time coming up with what I should have said at the time, of course)

Dervel - yup! DH doesn't get offered seats to sit down with one of the DC on his lap like I do on public transport (or help lifting a buggy up steps, like I used to when we were at that stage), but he generally gets a pat on the back for things like taking the kids to activities, and far more help and understanding if things don't go perfectly.

MrsE - I guess the test would be for a man to sit in a coffee shop reading the Gruffalo at levels loud enough for everyone to hear, complete with voices and see what the reaction is... Dervel - up for the challenge??

I guess the test would be for a man to sit in a coffee shop reading the Gruffalo at levels loud enough for everyone to hear, complete with voices and see what the reaction is...

The thread had a lot of posts from people saying that they knew of men who were into this "performance parenting" thing, so it definitely was acknowledged that men are just as irritating!

I've not been around long but has MN always been so hostile about these things?

No. It has got worse. MN used to be more sophisticated and definitely more child and mum-friendly.

That' a shame Olenna, but like you, I always seem to think of retorts after the event!