Women in public/children in public

[ButtHoleinOne]

Children should be seen and not heard... I'm only just now realising how much that was designed to fuck over women too.

There are two threads now about "parenting" in public which sounds neutral but is obviously not neutral as women do the majority of parenting in married heterosexual (and obviously lesbian) relationships. And even after the relationships most single parents are women.

Women shouldn't "read too loudly" they also shouldn't give their children electronic devices, they should read to them instead, but in such a way as to not make a fucking sound and bother another human.

They also should not be pathetic and ask for a seat if they are pregnant or holding a baby on the train. Except for when they do and then they are in the wrong and should just bat there eyelids in a damsel in distress style.

Women should not let let anyone else in the cafe know they have children by basically requiring the children to act like tiny adults (but the sort of adults who don't speak or eat).

If the women fail at any of the above they should be met with filthy looks and be called a selfish cow on a pre ting website with mum in the title.

Could she though?

It seems to me that 'normal conversation' by a group of loud men sitting next to their briefcases as happens frequently in cafes near me is never an issue for people. Woman speaking in a normal voice to a kid is a massive problem

How loud can you a read a book really? Think about it.

ButtHoleinOne, that's a totally different subject We're talking about mums and kids in cafe's

We're talking about women and children in public generally, actually. Do keep up!

My kid definitely CANNOT just sit and eat!

I rarely post on mn these days as it feels like it is full of judgemental, self-righteous and frankly not very clever posters moaning about women who have the temerity to want to be out in public with their children. It's part of the whole hideous 'your child is just a lifestyle choice' bollocks, with a 'you are the only one who finds your child cute' added in for good measure. It must be pretty exhausting to have miserable irritation as one's default setting for relating with others in public spaces.

Mine can, but only for 5 minutes Certainly not for the length of time it takes to order food, food to arrive, eat and pay the bill.

I live in the north of England and I will say that most people here are fairly accepting of children. There are a lot of very people (particularly elderly ladies) in the cafes we go to who are lovely to the kids and sympathetic to me as a parent. It's so nice when this happens, it can really make your day. It also means we go back!

ButtHoleinOne, that's a totally different subject We're talking about mums and kids in cafe's

Well it's my thread so I do think I know what we're talking about and it's mothers in public and in one specific situation a mother reading her child a book in a cafe. Which is exactly why I was talking about.

There are a lot of very people (particularly elderly ladies) in the cafes we go to who are lovely to the kids and sympathetic to me as a parent.

This is interesting because "old women" also get a lot of grief on MN for being interested in children. My DD is a teenager now, and I'm glad I no longer have the issue about keeping her quiet and still (she was a lively toddler!) but I wonder whether I'm starting to tip into "interfering old lady" when I try to be sympathetic / supportive to parents (mothers) of young children.

Summer I love a sympathetic 'old' lady.

But that's because you're the survivor of what I'm going through at that moment (the awful kid and the perceived judgement) and it's nice to have glimpse into a happier future!

Enjoyed this thread and will placemark so I can come back to it on those days when I need to remember "it's not me, it's them".

Great post OP, you've nailed it.

I have often thought that if men did the bulk of the childcaring, there wouldn't be all this moral panic over children and "screens."

Was just thinking and remembering a scene in one of the later Anne of Green Gables books where Diana says that the pictures in Eaton's catalogue are splendid to amuse small children with. Mrs Rachel Lynde promptly replies 'I amused 10 children without Eaton's catalogue.' La plus ca change. Tablets are the new Eaton's.

I wonder if some of it is the difference between the socialisation of men and women. I am notoriously bad at sensing judgey disapproval. I nearly launched an old man on the bus once who apparently made some comment about me being on benefits (despite not knowing me from Adam). I hadn't heard him but the friend I was with told me. That is the only example of this kind of experience that I can think of.

I wouldn't notice a sigh or tut or anything of those things when I am out, it's a running joke in my family about how "bubbled" I am when I am out and about.

My point is that I am sure I have had plenty of tuts and sighs, as I mentioned in another thread I smoked heavily when pregnant but don't actually remember any public judging. There must have been some.

I wonder if, like me, men do get some shit but aren't as tuned in?

Isaysteadyon

miffer I don't believe all men are so unaccustomed to social cues that they would completely miss it. Men tend not to get harassed in public. They don't get cat called, they don't get told to cover their fat ass better, or to smile, And middle aged men don't tend to feel so comfortable speaking up at other men.

In the 15 years I was with my partner, I can count on 0 fingers the amount of times a man has been rude to me to my face. I have literally watched him walk away to the toilet seconds before someone a man decided they had a problem with my general existence.

In fact thinking about that, in my case because of the close ages of my children and the fact that I've never worn a wedding ring, I wonder how much of the disapproval has come from me appearing to be a single mother of too many children in public?

I don't get the tutting and judgyness when I'm with him and he actively gets praised on his own.

In the 15 years I was with my partner, I can count on 0 fingers the amount of times a man has been rude to me to my face.

'While he was standing with me' I should say.

Great thread, OP. I tend to engage with my DC when we're out. Not a running commentary by any means because I'd find that exhausting but I point out the odd thing to them if we are walking somewhere, and just generally chat with them. In a situation where we have to sit still for any period of time, I get out a book, or a toy. I do look around as I whisper a story to them, as I'm so conscious of being judged as being too loud, performative, smug etc and it makes me feel awkward that I'm doing something that others might pour scorn on. On the other hand, I won't take a tablet out in part because I would feel judged for ignoring my DC, not interacting and letting them watch too much TV! I wish someone would issue guidelines on what exactly constitutes acceptable mothering in public . Like pp's I can well imagine DH being lavished with praise for reading and talking to DC in public.

This reminds me of a story that was doing the rounds a few months ago about a mother who had made up goodie bags with an apology note to give to fellow passengers on a flight. She had twins.
Utterly ridiculous for her to have to be expected to do this. Babies are babies and sometimes they cry. Everyone was a baby once!
(Sorry for the daily fail link)

www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2198255/Twins-flight-Parents-hand-sweets-ear-plugs-placate-fellow-passengers.html

My point is that I am sure I have had plenty of tuts and sighs, as I mentioned in another thread I smoked heavily when pregnant but don't actually remember any public judging. There must have been some

If I had seen you, yes I would judged you hugely. You would not however have had the slightest indication I was doing so. I would have assumed that anyone who was smoking in public whilst heavily pregnant was probably likely to let rip at anyone they thought was judging them.

Re women and small children in public, I do sometimes wonder if mothers interpret a complete lack of interest in their children as some sort of judgement.

Noise levels would have to be appalling for me to care but on the other hand I'm really not interested in you or your child and I don't wish to engage with you or them.

While I totally agree with there being a misogynistic element to this, it's also tied up with cultural practices. I'm from Ireland and live in England. The difference in attitude to children between the two countries is enormous. In Ireland children are wallpaper, everyone accepts they're just there and no one takes much notice of them, generally. It's generally acknowledged that kids are cute and lovely but also ridiculously hard work, there is a lot of sympathy and fellow feeling, possibly due to the fact that very large families were common until recently. The idea that people would watch and question 'parenting' hasn't quite caught on - being a parent is like being a woman, it's just a fact about you, not something you do. In contrast I feel quite 'watched' as a parent in the UK and there's a sense that their behaviour reflects on me in a way that's up for judgement by other people. It feels tied to class I to me in some way. Of course throw in the fact that I'm a woman and a mother and I can't do right. It has a significant effect on mothers IMO. In Ireland it's possible to just live your life with your children tagging along - you just bring them around with you and no one takes any notice. But in the UK you are restricted because you know you're going to get looks and judgement. I tend to gear a lot of my activity towards child-friendly stuff for that reason. My cousin's in Ireland don't - they just get on with things and expect the children to fall in with it. There are far fewer child oriented spaces in Ireland - why would you spend a hellish afternoon in softplay when you can go to the pub with your friends and just let the kids run around?

To expand on the class thing - it feels like in the UK child care is seen as something well bred people don't do - children are out of sight until they're fit to be seen in public (ie not children any more). Upper class mothers of old wouldn't dream of being out with a child. So being a woman out with a child evokes a cultural signal of inferiority.

So being a woman out with a child evokes a cultural signal of inferiority

No it does not. Class distinctions in the UK are alive and well.

I don't doubt a woman's or for that matter a man's , class signifiers get taken into account but a sweeping statement that being out in public with a child evokes a cultural signal of inferiority because upper class children have or used to have nannies is over egging the pudding.

A society tends to be shaped by the powerful people. If the powerful people don't associate with children then surely that has an effect on how children are seen by that society?

I would have assumed that anyone who was smoking in public whilst heavily pregnant was probably likely to let rip at anyone they thought was judging them

You wouldn't be wrong, fucking hell maybe I was/am(?) intimidating then. Which I suppose is exactly the same reason people wouldn't do it to a man.

Miffer I don't believe all men are so unaccustomed to social cues that they would completely miss it

Oh I definitely don't think that men get judged the same. I was thinking more that as we raise girls to care more what people think of them part of that is inevitably being on the look out for the social cues that show people are disapproving.

The UK does seem to have an issue with the idea that children are people too - and by association, parents (and so especially mothers).

It's like the mother is a person, but the children aren't and therefore a mother/buggy/toddler should somehow squeeze into the space for only one person and any more than that is unreasonable.

I've stopped being anything more than strictly reasonable. My kids are pretty well behaved (and give them an ipad and they're no problem at all) and as I live away from family and friends, they're going to be with us if we go out. They are as entitled to eat/travel as any other human being and I'm not going to apologise for reasonable behaviour, not when there's a couple of business men in the corner loudly talking, or a couple on their way out, or people on their way back from shopping taking up room with bags/suitcases/whatever.

People on here often call that entitled parenting, I just think it's recognising that children exist, and aren't less important just because they're smaller.