Women in public/children in public

[ButtHoleinOne]

Children should be seen and not heard... I'm only just now realising how much that was designed to fuck over women too.

There are two threads now about "parenting" in public which sounds neutral but is obviously not neutral as women do the majority of parenting in married heterosexual (and obviously lesbian) relationships. And even after the relationships most single parents are women.

Women shouldn't "read too loudly" they also shouldn't give their children electronic devices, they should read to them instead, but in such a way as to not make a fucking sound and bother another human.

They also should not be pathetic and ask for a seat if they are pregnant or holding a baby on the train. Except for when they do and then they are in the wrong and should just bat there eyelids in a damsel in distress style.

Women should not let let anyone else in the cafe know they have children by basically requiring the children to act like tiny adults (but the sort of adults who don't speak or eat).

If the women fail at any of the above they should be met with filthy looks and be called a selfish cow on a pre ting website with mum in the title.

I'm glad he's not the only hand holding resister! He has reins as a back up (which are of course a further source of judgement)...

It seems to me to fall onto the same spectrum as when you see posts on here decrying baby groups as 'full of women who only talk about their children', with the poster going on to either hint or say explicitly that 'they're more than just a mum'. It's the 'just' that gets me - as though motherhood is of such low importance and so menial that it must be mitigated by some other quality or attribute. The idea that women at baby groups might chat about their children, at least to begin with, because that's the only guaranteed source of common ground they have is not worthy of consideration. Also, dads are apparently immune from this (although the dads I've met at groups talk about.... their children). If I meet up with horsey people, we tend to talk about horses because that's what we have in common, and because that's generally how socialising with new people works, but no one berates you for that, do they?

Spudlet just fyi Einstien didn't speak his first word until he was four! I'm sure your ds is fantastic!

". Should we not call people out on their behaviour because it would be anti-feminist to criticise the behaviour of a mother?"
Apparently we should scream in her ear and throw our coffee at her as one particularly charming poster suggested. And no one seemed to think that was in the slightest bit disproportionate

I've actually re-joined mumsnet after a long break (separated from DP recently)... I left originally because the outrageous level of judgement and lack of empathy on a couple of posts I made was exacerbating my (horrific) postnatal anxiety and OCD.

I came back because I'm in a better place psychologically, and hoped I'd find some other newly single mums to chew the fat with - but did click onto the active threads.

Horrified to see in the past few days that babies should now no longer be in cafes making any noise, on tubes after 7pm, or at sporting events. I.e. as a single mother, who is still breastfeeding, nor should I be.

I know I am a performance parent. It's something I've talked about with my analyst. I guess I do it because the constant chatter with DS and 'upbeatness' stops the anxiety taking over. It fills my head with positivity rather than OCD thought spirals. It helps me feel like a 'good mum' - I don't want anyone else to know I am - I just want to be personally sure of that fact. And it often leads to much-needed interaction with other adults - and I must say overwhelmingly positive - older women coming over to play with the baby, or reminisce about their own, or waitresses coming for a cuddle. I'm often told how nice it is to hear a mum talking to her baby, rather than sat on a phone (I'm far from 'on' 24/7 do that too, when DS puts me down for a minute!)

I guess the point is, that those posts have now made me feel insecure about the one thing I was doing to feel 'secure' as a mother. I WASNT performance parenting for anyone else to look at me - but so that I felt like I was performing well as a mother.

I think it's utterly vile that MN has become a place where the judgement and tearing down of other women, is de rigeur - and one the one thing we should all be united on - the right to be mothers we want to be, wherever we are, in the best way we can.

I'm not sure I'll stick around again, as worry that this place is just too 'hard' for someone with a high level of anxiety and self-doubt. Shame.

Great OP, I agree with you and found those pp threads odd.

Some of us get excited when we engage with our dc when out and about and experiencing new things, some of us talk loudly as that's the way we talk, I couldn't care less how strangers judge my parenting I literally don't care. Today Dc and i walked past a gigantic Salvador Dali poster in a shop and I stopped and explained who the artist is and what sort of stuff he used to paint. I asked dc what they could see on th picture and explained talked about how things are different and weird in ours dreams. dc are 8 and 5. They loved it and we talked about it for a bit until they saw in ice cream van, I am interested in art, they love painting and drawing. If anyone thought I was pp it's absolutely their problem and has nothing to do with me or my dc. I might even look around when talking to my dc (which apparently is proof that I am indeed pp). I only look around to ascertain whether I am possibly talking too loud or standing in the way with my dc.

OP I agree with what you say. it's sad.

sorry - that was long, and many errors towards to end, but I think you get the drift...

I think there are two factors at work; as well as fathers being challenged less I think they fear what others think less, due to different socialisation obviously. My dh is a sahd and I sometimes feel embarrassed by his public parenting (not performance just completely uninhibited). I'm not convinced my kids haven't irritated strangers on his watch or that people haven't given the odd look but if they did he would never notice!

Women with children on buses is another example. OF COURSE disabled people should get all the space they need as a priority but there seems to be a glee in telling women with buggies to get off or fold the buggy when it's not practical or necessary. It's just - how dare you (actually you two people) take up space and have needs. The best thing about having older children now is not having to deal with the wrath of a bus driver who is rightly pissed off with the grief he gets from the general public but chooses to bite back not at hobby teenagers or rude commuters but at women with buggies.

As for members of the public who whinge about buggies being too big and yet do not themselves choose to drive a Smart car but prefer something larger and more comfortable ...

Gobby teenagers!

@enthusiastedna

I like your phrase 'uninhibited parenting' - I feel like I can use that - I'm not 'performing' for anyone but my and DS' benefit.

I accept I'm pretty cringe whatever you call it! ;)

I wonder if fathers are naturally less inhibited/don't report feeling inhibited when parenting in public, because they don't have a concept of/ experience being watched (and judged) in other areas of their lives?

Spot on OP. Considering this site is called mumsnet, it does seem very anti-mother lately. Posters on the cafe thread have actually said that everyone is laughing at people like the mother in the OP. They can speak for themselves - I think it sounds lovely.

"uninhibited parenting" is a great phrase - I'm going to steal that!

QueenN - maybe give AIBU a wide berth if you are feeling a bit fragile, but stick around on the feminism board

DP is less aware of people in general. He won't change his volume when he knows he can be overheard. That's partly socialisation, and also partly him just being naturally less bothered by other people in general. He doesn't try to fit in as much, which has benefits and drawbacks for him. As does my approach.

I expect my dramatic readings of various children's books would not be enjoyed, but I work in theatre, so people are stuck with it. I am incapable of not doing the voices. I'm also quite silly and not inhibited about playing - I basically have a degree in dressing up - so I bet I go down a treat. Im also a trained singer so no inhibitions about singing nursery rhymes or whatever in public. I have on occasion accidentally sung a harmony at baby group, but I did say three Hail Marys after.

Queen AIBU is always a bearpit, I avoid it mostly unless I'm feeling particularly robust. It is a bloody shame though, and I do agree that there is a distinct current of distaste for motherhood running through certain threads on this forum at the moment.

Thanks everyone- I agree AIBU is definitely not the place for me these days.

I do like the look of it in here though... looks around cheerily

'I would bet both my children, my house, and my cat that if DH had been there that man would not spoken to him like he spoke to me. 100% certain of that.'

100%.

I was walking along a quiet road the other day and this guy stopped and told me I should be walking on the other side of the road.

No way in hell would the have done that with a guy. Not a fucking chance.

I'm so glad you've said this OP. I saw that thread about the woman reading aloud to her child in a cafe and I thought 'oh god, that's me! How embarrassing. I do that all the time.' I don't do it to show off my amazing parenting, I do it cos I have a toddler and a baby to entertain.

But that's it isn't it. From the very start little girls who have something to say are 'show offs' and a mother simply talking to her child and maybe casting a nervous eye around to check she's not being watched is doing it for the attention

We must always look slightly shamed for taking up space.

I very rarely do loud parenting if you don't count shouting I'm much more a "tablet for all" parent. I appreciate an easy life. But when I've been caught out or a child gets hurt, out comes the full narration.

Yes mummy is just going to put the plaster on, can you see the bird out of the window? I think it's watching us. Isn't the bus very fast? See that didn't hurt a bit. You're so very brave, see kids, isn't your sister very brave?

It's most definitely not to look like a fabulous mother it's to keep my child as calm as possible because whatever I'm doing isn't as annoying as a full blown three child tantrum.

Yes Dervel, women do get hassled in public. mostly middle aged men for some reason ime. I've had loud tuts many times and a full telling off when my three, very young, very fucking exhausted children who'd spent hours on trains that day finally kicked off at dinner time on a train.

I am confident the man will never, never, never, never do it again though.

Dh has elderly ladies come over to tell him how lovely he is I do get that they probably raised their children with a man who'd never changed a nappy so they obviously think Dh is amazing but it makes me a bit 😒 about the obvious difference in treatment.

Why like he owns the road?

I had just passed my licence and was attempting to parallel park a 7 seater with a tow bar on my narrow road. A man behind me using us as a fucking through road started holding down his horn bibbing at me for making him wait a second. I have zero doubt that he would never have done it to my 6'3 husband. But stupid woman driver with children is just an easy target for a day's frustration.

I also have zero doubt that he was in fucking shock when I stopped the car, got out of the car and told him in no uncertain terms what I thought about his heavy handed use of his horn and how I didn't give a fuck how long he had to wait though it was certainly going to take him longer to get home now.

I live in Spain and was on here in June panicking about bringing my bouncy enthusiastic chatty 5yo to the UK for a holiday as some of the posts i've read on here are so sad.

Would people tut and harrumph and suck their teeth loudly? Would people come up and say "can you do x? you can't do y. child not welcome...' etc etc.

And lo... DS is a chatty thing, waffled on all the way through our flight, posh couple of around late-60s age* sitting in front of us. Once we got to passport control they realised they were in the same queue as us and gave me and DS the stink eye, whispered to each other and fucked off to another queue. By all means move away from us but it was the filthy look i got off them that really got my back up.

Welcome to Britain.

• quite possibly has nothing to do with their age, but they came across as just like my same-aged mother "oh gawd children" .

Fascinating post op...I had never thought about this before but it's so true!

I do spend a lot of my time trying to reign my boisterous 4yo in - sometimes because his behaviour is just awful by anyone's standards, but other times because I'm worried about how it reflects on me I suppose.

That's sad isn't it?

I always find the hand wringing about the school run clogging up the roads a bit anti female. The important men doing men things aren't causing traffic, just the nuisance women dropping children off on the way to work. A bit of rain and a 2 mile walk is good for children who unlike and presumably their mothers benefit from doing 8 miles a day in the rain too.

Yes to school run traffic. How dare women and children use the roads? I once wrote to Mary Anne Sieghart after she wrote a silly piece about school run traffic clogging up her journey and asked why she wasn't walking to work since it was so easy for parents - usually women - with kids and buggies in tow. Surprised at her being oblivious to the gender issue there.

So a child can't just sit and eat? The mum can have a normal conversation with said child without disturbing others.