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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am Jazz. ***Trans content. Please do not open if you just want to post insults or whinge about another trans thread***

493 replies

CosmicPineapple · 03/08/2017 07:54

I am Jazz is a reality show focusing on the journey of a teenage transgirl/woman whos parents supported transition from aged 5 and has been on TV since aged 6.
Now aged 16.

I don't watch the show as I strongly disagree with everything about it. However I briefly saw a clip of the next episode as the tv happened to be on the channel that airs I am Jazz I had been watching say yes to the dress and it was about dating.

Jazz goes to a sort of speed dating event where everyone is sat in the dark. Jazz wants a relationship, which is normal for a teenager however Jazz does not tell the boys/men that they are trans and in fact male.
As they are in darkness Jazz feels that if they get to know each other without the barrier of seeing each other/being trans it may lead to a relationship.

For me this is totally wrong.
Why should it be ok for Jazz or anyone to withold the truth about a very important aspect of who they are?
Plus I would imagine there to be some very upset and angry teenage boys when they find out they have been duped and lied to.

I remember a good few years ago where a man killed his partner after finding out on a TV show that they were trans. There have been a few similar murders over the years.
I am in no way condoning the murder or harm of another person I am just highlighting the danger that can come if you lie about the sex you are and it should not be encouraged as no relationship can survive on lies.

I just wondered what other peoples thoughts are on the subject of lying about your sex to the people you date?

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Datun · 03/08/2017 22:14

Thanks SelfMadeMan. I'll watch that tomorrow.

Ereshkigal · 03/08/2017 22:15

Surely he's going to have the surgery though?

CosmicPineapple · 03/08/2017 22:21

Jazz has tried.
The Doctors have said due to the hormone blockers taken so young the penis is not developed enough to do the surgery properly.

Above info supplied by the lovely posters on this thread not me.

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Scrumplestiltskin · 03/08/2017 22:30

AdalindSchade
There are so many things going on in the brain, in a developing child, and honestly we can't know how halting puberty and putting a child on one of the multiple opposite sex hormones will affect the developing brain.
Which is why it's pretty upsetting to see people essentially experimenting on children.
From what is tentatively known and theorised, it's not looking good for Jazz and other children who don't go through a normal puberty.
Relatively little is known about the relationship between puberty and neural development in humans. However, a wealth of evidence from nonhuman animal studies indicates that the hormonal events of puberty exert profound effects on brain maturation and behavior [Cahill, 2006; Sisk and Foster, 2004; Spear, 2000]. These changes mould the perceptions, motivations, and behavioral repertoire of an individual, enabling reproductive behavior and independence [Sato et al., 2008]. In recent years, a small but growing number of human behavioral and neuroimaging studies, including in populations with endocrine disruptions, have provided tentative evidence that pubertal hormones might influence the structure and function of the developing human brain.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3410522/

Scrumplestiltskin · 03/08/2017 22:41

cosmicpineapple
Jazz will likely have the surgery, but due to the better methods being unavailable, the process will be more complicated, will take longer to 'heal', will be more prone to complications post-op, and will have little to no sensation, probably unsatisfactory depth, and will look even less similar than most genital surgery results.
After all, depending on the method, they'll either literally be cobbling a cavity out of colon, and "labia" and "clitoris" out of the skin and glans of a prepubescent 2 inch penis, and scrotum with undescended testicles, or a cavity out of skin taken from the thigh, "labia" likely a mix of thigh and penile skin/scrotum, and again the glans of the prepubescent penis being the "clitoris." And hopefully not necrotising and falling off.
They can't expect very good results, given what materials they're working with. It's like trying to make vegan meat patties that will taste okay, while missing half the ingredients Confused
But at this point I honestly can't see Jazz backing out.

Tanaqui · 03/08/2017 22:56

Poor little kid. I don't think I can bear to validate the makers by watching it. I hope they grow up happy.

GavelRavel · 03/08/2017 23:42

god even Wikipedia says she was "assigned make at birth" No, she was born with 2 YY chromosomes in every cell and therefore was a male infant human. I'm sick of reading that nonsense, ok arguably she had gender dysphoria (or was gay) but assignation of sex at birth isn't a choice, you're male, female or intersex, nobody can choose.

Whinberry · 04/08/2017 00:17

She definitely wasn't born with two Y chromosomes in every cells - males are XY.

Datun · 04/08/2017 00:24

Scrumplestiltskin

evidence that pubertal hormones might influence the structure and function of the developing human brain.

Would the opposite sex hormones that Jazz had fulfil this function?

CosmicPineapple · 04/08/2017 00:32

Scrum your info makes for diffiult reading it needs to be heard.
This is not a fad like ra ra skirts and everybody wore them.
This fad has implications that cannot be reversed

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/08/2017 00:49

And I've got to add, I don't think she does look that feminine, even with with puberty blockers and oestrogen therapy

She doesn't. In recent pictures she has put on a lot of weight, her shoulders have broadened and her arms have filled out.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/08/2017 01:39

I've seen a couple of episodes of 'I am Jazz' (like previous posters 'say yes to the dress is my guilty secret Grin ) and every time I find it to be a maddeningly frustrating but also incredibly sad experience. One episode they were looking back at Jazz before she transitioned (so when she was a toddler) and talking about how they "knew" (extreme sarcastic air quotes there).

Their evidence was her love of high heeled shoes and glitter Hmm and that at a ballet recital Jared as was refused to join in because they wanted to wear a tutu, like the 'other' girls. I was just screaming 'so let him* wear a tutu FFS' at the T.V.

It was either his fifth or sixth birthday that they made the decision to trans him - by putting him in a girls swimming costume and decreeing no more haircuts.

It was all so superficial, and absolutely unnecessary - there is no reason they couldn't have let Jazz continue being Jared but allowed them to wear whatever they want, without lying about becoming a girl. A 6 year old can't understand that they can't really change sex (or at least they can't understand if their parents are telling them they can change sex). By the time Jazz was 11 and ready for more than just social transition there was no way she could back out (especially as she had already been on T.V telling her story to the world) as she'd been 'living as a girl' for 5 years, it was all she knew.

I agree with people up thread who think the mother has Munchausens, she really seems to be the driving force behind this and she seems to be the one pushing Jazz's books and public speaking. In every episode I've seen the other 3 children have voiced a feeling of maternal neglect in one way or another because the mother is putting all her energy into Jazz.

Both parents always parrot the line of 'transition because otherwise suicide' and whilst I absolutely sympathise with that fear amongst parents with teenagers who develop dysphoria, they really have pushed Jazz down a path not of her own choosing, and keep her moving along it justifying their choices with the 'suicide' line.

I have a lot of sympathy for Jazz, even though her belief system makes me want to bang my head against a wall, because she really seems to be the victim of the most dreadful abuse.

*Using male pronouns as this was pre transition

GavelRavel · 04/08/2017 01:45

sorry I meant XY rather than XX or even YY as I typed! I find it so disturbing I wasn't thinking straight! why couldn't they let her just be a feminine boy.

Scrumplestiltskin · 04/08/2017 03:17

Would the opposite sex hormones that Jazz had fulfil this function?
I'm not a biologist, but I don't think so. Not only is the male body not 'designed' (so to speak,) to make use of oestrogen in the same way as the female, but there are other hormones that are crucial to the female hormonal system.
Progesterone, which aids in proper breast development - the formation of the milk glands, the lobules etc, which in large part provide shape and mass to the breast. Tuberous breast deformities, where there is insufficient glandular tissue resulting in aesthetic issues, and which can affect females and males, seems to be rather common amongst trans males, and is what Jazz has. Given progesterone's role in breast formation, I suspect the reason for more trans males having it, might be lack of progesterone. Jazz did take progesterone for a short time to try to help their breasts, but it made them suicidal.
There's also FSH (follicle stimulating hormone,) produced by the pituary gland, which causes the maturation of a follicle in the ovary, follicles being what contain the eggs.
LH (luteinizing hormone,) which triggers the release of an egg from a follicle.
And even testosterone is very important to women, in the right amount, and important to energy, bone strength, libido, and wellbeing. All of these hormones interact and cycle as puberty begins, and will continue to do so until menopause.
This article explains it really well, despite being for kids:
When your body reaches a certain age, your brain releases a special hormone that starts the changes of puberty. It's called gonadotropin-releasing hormone, or GnRH for short. When GnRH reaches the pituitary gland (a pea-shaped gland that sits just under the brain), this gland releases into the bloodstream two more puberty hormones: luteinizing hormone (LH for short) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH for short). Guys and girls have both of these hormones in their bodies. And depending on whether you're a guy or a girl, these hormones go to work on different parts of the body.
For guys, these hormones travel through the blood and give the testes the signal to begin the production of testosterone and sperm. Testosterone is the hormone that causes most of the changes in a guy's body during puberty. Sperm cells must be produced for men to reproduce.
In girls, FSH and LH target the ovaries, which contain eggs that have been there since birth. The hormones stimulate the ovaries to begin producing another hormone called estrogen. Estrogen, along with FSH and LH, causes a girl's body to mature and prepares her for pregnancy.
.kidshealth.org/en/teens/puberty.html
Jazz, however, has blocked the effects of FSH and LH from doing anything to their testes via testosterone. And they have no female reproductive system of course, for FSH and LH to work on. Also, without a female reproductive system, all oestrogen does is form breasts, decelerate height growth, and reduce muscle mass.
How all this affects the brain is uncertain, but it seems clear that blocking androgens completely, while not allowing an actual puberty but only giving oestrogen, cannot have the same effect on a person's physical (including brain, most likely,) development as natural puberty.
A lot of synaptic pruning (related to aiding in critical thinking etc,) happens in adolescence, for example. But honestly, no one knows yet what the complex interplay between puberty and its hormones and an adolescent's healthy brain development may be.

Scrumplestiltskin · 04/08/2017 03:21

Oh damn, I fucked up the link. Here it is:
www.kidshealth.org/en/teens/puberty.html

nooka · 04/08/2017 03:53

What struck me about the Glamour video was not how much Jazz passed/didn't pass (and to be honest I thought that in that video at least they could have been one of my dd's female teen friends quite easily) but how ironic it was that they said 'accept us for who we are' when one of the defining characteristics of someone who is trans (or at least old fashioned trans) is that they do not accept themselves but seek to be other via the use of artificial hormones and transformative surgery. Also ironic to be lectured about relationships by someone who hasn't had any.

NewbieSpartacus · 04/08/2017 04:28

wildly off topic

Elendon my fallopian tubes have never felt sexy! What am I doing wrong?!

GinaFordCortina · 04/08/2017 07:30

Get your colours done newbie. I find a yellow bow sets mine off nicely

I am Jazz. ***Trans content. Please do not open if you just want to post insults or whinge about another trans thread***
StealthPolarBear · 04/08/2017 07:53

"Yesterday 16:31 CosmicPineapple

Transing children is child abuse."
Yes. This is horrendous. I've never come across jazz before, what country is this all happening in?

If jazz will never go through puberty then surely that will have major health and development implications for life?

And yes to the pp who said surely jazz could have been a normal camp adolescent boy who wore dresses and make up if he wanted to. With no long term harm.
This is absolutely awful.

AdalindSchade · 04/08/2017 07:55

Isn't jazz an identical twin? How does the 'hormone wash' or 'born in the wrong body' narrative work with identical twins?

AdalindSchade · 04/08/2017 07:58

Sorry it's not jazz who is a twin though they do have twin brothers. It was these ones I was thinking of. Adopted as babies and not allowed to like girly things...
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3274371/Identical-twins-born-boys-family-coped-one-came-transgender-transitioned-Wyatt-Nicole.html

StealthPolarBear · 04/08/2017 08:01

America.
Why is this not abuse?
Does America deal with fgm?

CosmicPineapple · 04/08/2017 08:03

USA Stealth

I cannot understand why the abuse of Jazz has been allowed and televised!

What will happen when Jazz reaches adulthood and is no longer a novelty and is just another transwomen?
No more tv show.
No more income.
Probably in therapy for life.

Uts so fucked up that the parents have been allowed to do this and have been paid to do it Sad

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StealthPolarBear · 04/08/2017 08:04

I really hope that if this was over here people like the children's commissioner would intervene and help to halt this madness