I'm so cross

[Yolandafarthing]

Just need somewhere to vent. My local parent's Facebook group had a post from a woman complaining she has hardly any help from her husband WRT housework/childcare and asking if others struggle too. Cue loads of other women commiserating.

Then the bloody admin shuts the comments on the thread down, because "it feels pretty negative to men, and I know that many of us have fantastic, pro-active and supportive partners, many of whom go to work as well as parent, and some of us are two Dad or two Mum families. If you swap the word 'man' for other descriptors like ethnicity or religion, it becomes clear that sweeping statements are unfair and inaccurate....I don't want [group name] to be a place where we perpetuate sexist stereotypes."

I'm fuming. This is a woman speaking. A woman silencing other women, because poor men.

Thoughts?

why do you not want to abolish gender, coddi?

Either coddi is male or feels superior to other women because of being able to perform femininity so much better.

Men do work in prostitution.

Yeah, 0,1% of prostitutes are male. So what? I am sure much more than that percentage of soldiers, miners, etc, are female in countries where women are allowed to do those jobs.

Either way, you cannot claim that men take more risks than women. Because they don't, and IF they do, it is by their own fucking choice, because they would like to keep the prestige of, for example soldiering, to themselves.

'My point remains that more men die and are injured at work than women.'

More men die and are injured at work than women, yes. In the vast majority of cases, the company is run by a man and staffed by men. If men want to improve the safety of men, then men need to deal with it as in almost all cases, men are the ones who can do that. The fact that they don't do that is a real shame but not really something women can do much about.

In prostitution women die because men kill them. Do you see the difference there?

*women

Goddamn mobile autocorrect. Men probably designed this phone. They're out to get me I'm telling you

I think it's very telling how women are the only oppressed group of people for whom it's apparently acceptable to pop up and say "but the oppressive class have it worse!"

Imagine if someone popped up on a civil rights forum and claimed that white people actually have it worse than black people. They'd be ripped to shreds and quite rightly too.

I mean, more white women die of ovarian cancer than black women. Doesn't mean anything really does it.

Men on oil rigs dies because their bosses make mistakes or actively don't address safety issues. It's a major problem in that field and one that's been dealt with quite well since the horrific incident at Deep Water Horizon. Oil rig jobs are a vital part of the economy and digging for oil, for now, is a necessary activity.

Women in prostitution die because men give them diseases, men rape them and maim them, men murder them. Nothing much is ever done about that and many people, women included, argue that men should go on having vaginas to rent, despite the fact that actually there's no need for anyone to ever us a prostitute. It's so fucked up I don't see how any woman can look at the situation and think 'ah everything's fine.'

ever use a prostitute.

More men die and are injured at work than women, yes

Has anyone quoted any sources that back this up? And I mean sources that

a) count prostitution as "work" and
b) acknowledge that childcare, and housekeeping are work, and household accidents are work accidents.

Because frankly, that clothing factory in Bangladesh that collapsed and killed the (mostly female) workers alone would have massively increased the percentage of women dying in work accidents.

And of course you are totally right that males murdering prostitutes is not an accident, so very, very, very different from males dying in accidents that could have prevented if their (male) bosses had implemented more workplace safety.

There's a difference of course! But to be fair I wouldn't generally bring prostitution into the argument I was making, I was talking in the context of arguments regarding wages, inequality at work etc.

The issue of men killing female prostitutes is more in the realm of considerations for safe sex work and the issues of male violence against women, rather than part of discourse regarding equal opportunities in employment. Prostitutes as a group tend to be extremely vulnerable and forced to operate on the fringes of society/legal boundaries. It's a different ball game and not comparable to other types of jobs.

I was only trying to make a point about how men also face a different type of inequality when it comes to employment. But any argument suggesting this is generally met with a "yes but women experience something negative in this area so fuck you", when of course it's not a zero sum game where the problems men face negate the problems women face.

And saying well that's a male problem so men should fix it says it all really. Either feminism is about equality of the sexes or it's not. Someone has to do those jobs. Really, to really make women equal, we should have a campaign for more women to work those dangerous jobs. I know that's farcical and ridiculous but that's the path we're going down here.

Vestal

Added to this biological differences can lead to differences in behaviour, the link between different levels of testosterone and aggression for example.

That is sex, not gender. Which is why I don't want males in women's spaces regardless of the "gender" as which those males identify.

It is not, when these different hormone levels, do not make violence pre-requisite. It indicates predisposition not causality. Gene expression, for example, can vary due to environment, brain physiology due to prolonged thought patterns.

Gender, on the other hand, is telling people what they ought to do, either because of their actual sex, or, nowadays, because of their actual sex AND because they have failed to identify as the other sex. We do not need that. We do not need to make it more inclusive, we can just do away with it.

If gender was fully inclusive, people would be told the characteristic behaviours and presentation of their sex are equal to and as diverse as those of the opposite sex. They would be told there is no requirement for any distinct gender differences between the sexes.

That - socializing boys to be aggressive and entitled - is gender. Why would anyone want to keep that?

Indeed, that is not what I am proposing, at all. I would propose both sexes are encouraged to be assertive when appropriate, instead.

No, the statistics don't include prostitution as work Vestal. If it were it would balance things our more but given that 97% of those fatally injured at work in 2013 were male, it's unlikely the balance would be tipped.

That said, it's worth pointing out here that 2 women a week are murdered by men. So if we're talking about danger, yes it's dangerous to work as a man, as you may be hit by falling debris or caught in a machine, but it's dangerous to live as a woman because a man might decide to murder you.

My point remains that more men die and are injured at work than women.

That's wrong. On the official figures a logger is the most dangerous job in the world. Except more prostitutes die than loggers.

From murder to beatings, to sexual assault, not to mention STIs and HIV.

Other statistics show that after prostitution, female convenience store workers are the next most dangerous followed by male taxidrivers.

Stats can't take into account all the illegal prostitution, either.

'And saying well that's a male problem so men should fix it says it all really. Either feminism is about equality of the sexes or it's not. Someone has to do those jobs. Really, to really make women equal, we should have a campaign for more women to work those dangerous jobs. I know that's farcical and ridiculous but that's the path we're going down here'

Feminism, to my mind, isn't about equality of the sexes. It's about liberating women from male oppression. Yes, men die at work, it's terrible. But that's got nothing to do with feminism.

Imagine if someone popped up on a civil rights forum and claimed that white people actually have it worse than black people. They'd be ripped to shreds and quite rightly too.

That's probably because the oppression of black people only really started when Europeans needed slaves to work on the fields in the newly invaded American continent, whereas males had some thousands of years to socialize women into subservience.

After thousands of years of brainwashing, it is no wonder many women prioritize males above everything, even above their own daughters, but it still is fucking depressing.

Either feminism is about equality of the sexes or it's not

It's not. It's the liberation of women from male oppression.

As stated umpteen times, we cannot have equality until that has been achieved.

Judging by this thread we are a very, very long way off that.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/fatalinjuries.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi10Jeiu6nVAhUGKcAKHZlZACEQFggyMAA&usg=AFQjCNEH2VHtavL5_Hhtr-1AFERMzAjBEg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/fatalinjuries.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi10Jeiu6nVAhUGKcAKHZlZACEQFggyMAA&usg=AFQjCNEH2VHtavL5_Hhtr-1AFERMzAjBEg

Page 7.

97% of fatalities male.

If it was reversed it would be a huge issue. I don't understand why pointing it out is so bad. Again, it doesn't negate the ways women experience inequality.

Just a handful of the girls and women attacked and in some cases murdered by men unknown to them for no other reason than their sex in the UK in the last few months alone:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-40529081
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/man-arrested-in-manchester-over-alleged-of-four-year-old-girl
www.itv.com/news/london/2017-04-24/e-fit-appeal-after-12-year-old-girl-sexually-assaulted-in-swimming-pool/
www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/15339336.Mother_speaks_out_about_sex_attacker_who_assaulted_her__brave__daughter_after_getting_off_Twickenham_bus/?ref=mrb&lp=14
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/28/man-who-raped-stranger-hours-before-his-wedding-given-life-term
www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/15280636.VIDEO___Dangerous__rapist_jailed_for_life___but_are_there_more_victims_/
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40345133
www.itv.com/news/anglia/update/2017-02-28/police-outraged-by-rape-attack-in-ipswich/
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rape-sex-attack-manchester-manhunt-13236465
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39377626
amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/12/vadims-ruskuls-jailed-murder-pardeep-kaur-hotel-worker-m4
www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/police-step-up-patrols-after-15yearold-girl-sexually-assaulted-in-twickenham-a3592681.html
www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/chiswick-assault-woman-19-shoved-to-ground-and-repeatedly-punched-in-random-attack-a3429646.html

Just a small number of those I can remember off hand (which actually made any news) from the last 10 months alone. All attacked for absolutely no other reason than they were female. I'd call that oppression.

X post with sparrow!

The patriarchy is bad for men too.

I also do not subscribe to the notion that women can't do dangerous jobs historically reserved for men.

There is, of course, a question of strength. Which we can't do much about.

So we can't consider ways to make life better for men too until all inequality against women is entirely eradicated?is this worldwide or on a country by country basis? Like it we were fully liberated here could we then consider men's issues even if women in other countries weren't fully liberated?

Surely it's more like some scales, adding to each side as needed until balance is achieved?

POINTING OUT MEN DIE AT WORK DOESN'T NEGATE/CHANGE/SEEK TO MINIMISE THAT WOMEN DIE AT THE HANDS OF MEN.

Stop conflating. Fucking hell.

'If it was reversed it would be a huge issue. I don't understand why pointing it out is so bad. Again, it doesn't negate the ways women experience inequality.'

It's a huge issue as it is, Mondie. It's terrible that so many men die at work. Their bosses should be held to account for that. However, women aren't responsible for the fact that so many men are killed at work. Women have fought and fought and fought for the right to work alongside men, even on the frontline of battle. Women don't force men into these jobs and they don't prevent the jobs from being safe. There isn't inequality going on there, there's a lack of proper safety, which is a major industrial issue addressed very well by the Health and Safety Executive.

Stop conflating. Fucking hell.

Conflating? This thread isn't about that specific issue, unless every conversation in it not about housework is diverting the thread?

The patriarchy is bad for men too.

Yeah, but apparently not so bad that they'd want to get rid of it. The males who are disadvantaged under patriarchy, most of them are like slaves planning to buy their freedom, and after that, buy slaves themselves.
They'd hate for the system to change, because then they couldn't own slaves.

I wasn't even responding to that line of conversation anyway, more the talk of women and girls not being oppressed and the idea girls are being brought up in an equal world when we run the risk of male sexual violence against us for being female constantly. It's so frequent it scarcely makes any news, yet there's no outcry.