Changing gender without any medical care/advice/opinion - just saying 'I'm a woman' and it being so

[Oscha]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

I feel so naive right now-I didn't think this would really get to this point: So they actually want to make it possible to turn around and say, 'I am a man/woman' without any kind of doctor's confirmation of gender dysphoria?

What the fuck is this going to do to women's prisons? How many female criminals will end up abused, raped, killed by MEN in what should be safe places for them?! This is nothing to do with trans people-this is just going to be taken advantage of by predatory men.

Hedgehog, that is very true and is what is so tragically misguided about all these trans-identified females genuinely believing that they have found an individual solution to what is a collective problem.

And even within the trans community, they aren't awarded male status and privilege. FTTs' needs are never front and centre in the trans movement. In fact this new gender identity bill specifically denies full legal recognition for FTTs' male identities (in that it excludes them from inheriting titles and properties reserved for male heirs), but have any LGBT and trans orgs raised a peep about this blatant denial of transmen's identities in the bill? Why aren't they screaming the country down about how this is literal murder? Nope, they couldn't give a shit. It's all about the males, all the time.

I would also like to point out, Greypaw, that trans-identified males are actually very selective about which feminine sex roles they choose to take on. Notice that their inner 'womanhood' is typically expressed through those feminine stereotypes that they find enjoyable: make-up, sexy clothing, sexual submissiveness (on their own terms).

Funnily enough, they seem wholly uninterested in the other parts of femininity that women are groomed into from birth: subsuming one's own desires in the interests of others, emotional labour, performing most of the domestic and care work. And here is the key thing: no one expects them to. Nobody actually treats trans-identified males as women: they treat them as a super-special class of men, who are far more important than mere females could ever be.

Thanks for posting that Times article - it's useful to have all the facts in one place for the next time an online TA says but trans people would never do that...

I started a vote thread in Chat.

YY Donkey. Super-special class of men is exactly right. Which I guess is why so many male liberal, SJW types are so quick to suppport them at the expense of real women. Their (unconscious?) misogyny pushes them to favour the rights of their fellow men.

Have voted on your thread DJ

In other words, you get people choosing whether to be the care-giving underclass or the class of leaders. Instead of these roles being socially imposed based on biology, as they have been in the past, they are consensually chosen

That will never happen, and would never work. Women are socialized to enjoy their oppression, and while a lot of women are masochistic, sexually submissive and think that's empowering and their own choice ... not all women are.

If society stopped socializing women into subservience, and socialized everyone to be whatever they want to be ... then no one would want to be oppressed, except a few statistical outliers. Males would not witness misogynist oppression that they could then fetishize, so the number of autogynephiles would sink drastically.

It just doesn't work like this, and that's why the genderist worldview is nonsense.

The only way this might work is if you oppress everyone from birth, by default, and give people the option to buy themselves out of oppression.
That's how the US operates - many poor US Americans "choose" their poverty by voting republican, thus ensuring that they don't get healthcare and a minimum living standard, in the hopes that they can join the oppressor class one day, and then won't have to pay taxes.

But for this to work, you cannot let people join the oppressor class just like that.

So when (not if) a man who says he's a woman rapes a woman, will this be recorded as rape or will it have to be called sexual assault?

powershowerforanhour

I've seen it reported as rape by a woman. Watch the female sex offender statistics go up.

Brennan rape case

It will still be prosecuted as rape, Power, because it's the non-consensual insertion of a penis into a bodily orifice. (It will give an interesting if unintended insight into the true statistics - because even if they're recorded as rapes committed by women, rape will remain something that, barring a very very few cases of common purpose, can only be committed by a man. Watch those rape-by-women stats soar over the next few years. It'll be the only piece of official statistics that can't be obfusticated.)

Mark my words M0stly, The fact that they are men will get obscured. People will pontificate endessly over the causes of an increase in female offences.

The biological difference will be minimised or not even mentioned (cos they are women, right?). Something else will be brought to the fore. It will be about upbringing, sexual trauma, a mental health issue, pornography, teaching in schools, the destruction of moral society, something in the water.

Acknowledging it's because they are male will not be allowed.

Hell, male violence isn't acknowledged anyway.

Many of the women on the other thread 'identifying' as some other gender type to fill out government survey.

Just throw the meaningless shit back at them. And they can't complain if we don't feelz like ladiees and like trousers

Government announcement is here.

The LGBT survey is here. It's not specifically about the proposed changes, more about whether people have generally faced discrimination. There's a box at the end where you can put comments, up to 500 words.

The main consultation on changes to the GRA will start in the autumn according to the gov.uk page linked above.

If the govt bothered to speak to the medical community they'd discover that your doctor needs to know you biological sex to safely treat you.

Petition on 38 Degrees ''No to the erasure of women and abolition of our spaces''

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-to-the-erasure-of-women-and-abolition-of-our-spaces

Donkey Nobody actually treats trans-identified males as women: they treat them as a super-special class of men

YY.

IMO there's also an element of beong viewed as a delicate little feminine flower in need of protection by big manly men. So men subconsciously feel like they should be protecting transwomen whilst also giving male privilege. (iyswim!)

Apologies, huge cross post

Good point though Functional!

Looking at BBC news app, 4 murders reported, 2 male victims, 2 female. All perpetrators male. A couple of weeks ago 3 women were killed by their male ex/partners over the space of about 4 days.

It's a great shame the government isn't doing more to address male violence which affects everyone.

This is terrifying and utterly crazy. Wear what you want, sleep with whom you want, have surgery, change your name, identify as male or female, live however you want to. However a biological male will always be a man and a biological female will always be a woman.

This is a nonsense piece of legislation packaged as being LGBT inclusive but which is actually just bat shit crazy. People already have the right to call themselves whatever the fuck they like, but this should absolutely not afford men the right to access women's spaces and vice versa. All this legislation will do is present a safeguarding nightmare and put women at risk.

@MumsnetHQ need to get themselves down as a key stakeholder for the govt consultation on this and get a group of people from here to support them.

I'll be contacting the consultation to register my interest.

Oh bugger, it's not a proper traditional consultation!!! www.gov.uk/government/consultations/national-lgbt-survey

I've completed the survey and used the free text at the end to say what I think. 500 words isn't enough.

I'm interested to know how this survey will be used so I'm going to find out who is leading the consultation to find out more.

(As, what else will be used because a survey alone isn't good practise to make policy).

Stig Abel is currently explaining on LBC that he can't see any issue with a man who "identifies as a woman" changing in the women's changing rooms.

Shouldn't they define the terms at the top?

lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or intersex, or have a minority sexual orientation or gender identity

I feel like if you don't define what you mean by the terms, then it makes no sense anyway. By sensible people's definitions, I'm a straight woman - but by trans definitions, I'm trans (ie. I'm not happy with my gender as imposed) or agender (I don't have a gender identity - I just am)

I have filled in the 'consultation' as a bi woman, and part of what I wrote at the end is that the consultation should be open to all.

I hope Mumsnet will take a stand on this. They have a voice. Time to use it.