Son not welcome at sewing workshop

[Cheryl39]

Just tried to sign up for me, my 16 year old daughter and 18 year old son to join a one day sewing workshop and the tutor was very unwelcoming about my son joining. She said the workshops are mainly attended by women and the group as a whole might be uncomfortable talking about women's issues with a young man present. I feel really sad about this and so have not signed up.....is the tutor being discriminatory......what are your thoughts?

cheryl historically the gentle, sensitive approach isn't the method that gets results. But that wasn't why I objected. If you want to take that route, or you are naturally that way inclined, that's your prerogative. However I do object to you saying everyone else should take the same approach.

Liking males and standing against patriarchy and misogyny aren't mutually exclusive.

Liking males and standing against patriarchy and misogyny aren't mutually exclusive.

Amen to that.

Discrimination

"and from people that like men"

As opposed to?

"Odd place to put this thread - it's not exactly women's rights..."

It is because:

1. It is primarily a feminist issue that access to commercial services be equal for both sexes (notwithstanding the many sensible exceptions for women's spaces listed in the thread already). The fact that in this case the disadvantaged party is (unusually) a man doesn't make the principle less valid. www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-sex-or-sexual-orientation/discrimination-because-of-sex/#h-sex-discrimination-when-providing-goods-facilities-and-services

1. The ridiculous division of sewing into a woman's skill is terribly anti-feminist.

OP, if this is a paid activity then please challenge this tutor just as much as you would someone saying your daughter can't attend an engineering course.

"we have some groups near us (east London) which are aimed at Muslim women who have little English and little opportunity for interaction outside the home. It's usually things like quilt making and cookery."

If the OP were trying to push her son into a group like this, it would be a different matter. Its a good example of why women only groups can be very important.

The key difference is: they are either unpaid, or members only. They exist as spaces for women as much as to teach a skill.

It isn't a black and white situation. This same law protects misogynist golf clubs, but without it there would be no separate spaces for women.

Similarly if OPs tutor can get away with commercial discrimination, anyone can.

SylviaPoe your comments that my post is ludicrous and vacuous and your nit picking on my excessive use of ellipsis are precisely the approach I think put people off joining debates.
You are belittling a potential ally. Does being so aggressive seriously win hearts and minds?

Datun forgive me for not listing my top 3 priorities for feminism. I believe you when you say you do not want to ask a trick question but I don't want to leave myself open to further attack. I'm sure some people here will see my retreat from this thread as weak and will be very proud of themselves for wheedling out a non spartan. Well done to them. Sincere apologies to those who have responded positively to my thread and who have offered support. I wish I was strong enough to stay as some of you sound absolutely brilliant people. Thank you and good luck with your campaign for equality. I will slope off to apply aloe vera to my burns and will not dare to join feminist threads again.

You'd get a very different reception on feminist threads where you are willing to talk about women's rights. FYI.

I am sorry you felt attacked, OP, but I genuinely can't see why. The overwhelming majority agreed with you that your son should have been allowed to join the workshop, including the people who suggested some reasons why, on occasion, women only courses are a good idea.

You then went on to explain why you think feminists are doing feminism wrong. ( with a little suggestion that feminists don't like men sneaked in there!) So people asked you to expand and explain your position, and how you thought feminists should do feminism. And instead of discussing, you complain about being attacked and flounce.

All a bit tedious, really.

And I do rather wonder, OP, what your three top priorities for feminism are, if you're not prepared to give them in case of "attack"!6

Can the posters who think OP should complain and be butthurt about her son not being allowed to join explain how exactly they think that will benefit feminism?

And would you really fight for your daughter to get into a one day engineering course where there are only males who you know do not want her there?
Would you really want your teenage daughter to spend a day with men who, including the course leader, are offended by her presence? And if not, where is the difference to that sewing course?

The key difference is: they are either unpaid, or members only. They exist as spaces for women as much as to teach a skill.

So a woman can only give sewing courses for women who would rather have it be women only, for whatever reason (such as trying on clothes) if she can afford to donate her time for free?

Men, as a class, are not banned from learning how to sew. They can access this skill easily and freely almost everywhere. It is nowhere the same as men preventing women from going to university to learn male dominated professions. Hell, clothes-making used to be a male only profession, with all the boring and tedious work outsourced to women and the design being done by men.

I truly cannot see how it would benefit feminism to allow a teenage boy into a sewing course, be it a one day one, a for profit one, or a weekly non-profit group.

So why do you post this on the feminism board, unless you want to talk about how it is problematic to push males into spaces that used to be women only for whatever reason?

When I talk about feminism in my family (three men), I get a mixture of reactions.

From complete agreement, to endless discussion over why I think what I think. I have a late onset feminism, so they have only been exposed to this in the last few years.

But there are two things that I never do, one is flounce and the second is apologise for my passion.

OP, if you're not angry about feminism, I don't think you understand it properly.

You don't want to talk about your feminism because you feel too exposed, and you are asking others to sugarcoat their reactions and opinions. And this is amongst women! Who are feminists!

This is ridiculous. It's not about feminism or women only safe places.
It's about reinforcing ridiculous gender stereotypes that sewing is for women.
If the woman running the course promoted it as a "women only safe space sewing course" then she has the right to refuse the DS (if this ever happened) but otherwise it's just antiquated sexism.

Bollocks sewing is for women. Many of the world's top designers are men (you know, just as most dinners are cooked by women but most of the top chefs are men are we cooking for trolls). There are plenty of sewing classes / courses whathaveyous for men. Likely there are plenty of mixed ones too, or ones that will admit men.

Somewhere in the FWR archives is an interesting thread on when ss spaces are 'ok' and when they are not. It's worth looking up.

So, on this thread people have espoused a variety of views, but the bottom line is:

Most people have been supportive of the idea of men sewing, and men attending sewing and crafting classes unless there's a reason not to (the class was set up to help cross cultural barriers with Muslim women, or women are making garments they want to try on during the class).

A hobby in and of itself is not a justification for single sex spaces.

But single sex spaces are not in and of themselves a bad idea (a prime example of a great single sex space being the men's shed movement which, by providing male friendship groups, provides a space to tackle men's loneliness, mental health issues and higher suicide rates - but in an indirect and non-threatening way).

Single sex spaces become problematic when they function as mechanisms of social exclusion - for instance, deals cut and promotions decided on the golf course.

They can also be a bad idea if they entrench gender stereotypes - but the list of top male clothes designers suggests that this is not much of a problem in RL.

And, most importantly, most people have been supportive of the OP's son finding a class he is welcome at.

But still the OP flounces. And no doubt goes off to tell people what horrible people MN feminists are. And continues with her tumblr-esque feminism which centres men.

Single sex spaces become problematic when they function as mechanisms of social exclusion - for instance, deals cut and promotions decided on the golf course

Yes - or to phrase this differently where men's power and privilege is shored up or where spaces are separate but unequal (see the video 'Me and The Mosque).

Totally agree re the Men's Shed though. Women have their own social spaces (Women's Institute) - the MS is a great initiative.

I can also see why it might be useful to have a men's only sewing class and certainly a women only mechanics class.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog

Excellent post, as usual. Rational, informative and clarifying.

Agree m0stly

And i dont even know what an ellipsis is

Is it the dots? I like the dots...

I'm not googling, i know it sounds like a grammar/punctuation thing but ive been burnt before googling stuff on mumsnet

Sewing is a useful life skill, I can't think why this young man shouldn't be able to attend, well I suppose if it is a bra making or knicker making course but otherwise why not.

I can remember going to a mother and baby group and two dads joined, some people were in favour and others weren't. The problem was in our town there were 2 or 3 mother and baby groups and none for men. These two men coped with exactly the same stuff as SAHMs and most of us welcomed them. I suppose it meant you wouldn't discuss intimate things but I don't think we ever did before they joined, generally we talked about how the babies were doing, issues with weaning, sleeping etc and they were just as appropriate for them as for the rest of us. We also moaned about partners arriving home not realising how tiring it was being at home all day, just as appropriate for them as the rest of us as it happened.

If the group wasn't advertised as women only I think he should have been allowed to join the sewing group.

I have a late onset feminism

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Ellipsis is the three dots...

And so what? You (generic you) can't complain about the lack of women in STEM and say oh it's so intimidating because I'm short and a girl.

Conversely, you can't complain about a lack of women in STEM whilst doing nothing to make that environment less intimidating - hostile work environments caused by naked women posted on walls and continuous sexist banter are a thing.

BTW - it was very intimidating, but I stuck it out and have been in IT ever since. Training myself to stride confidently into a room full of men and not let them belittle me has actually been key to my career given that I am and will always be a short woman.

If the group wasn't advertised as women only I think he should have been allowed to join the sewing group

This is it - it's all wild speculation because we don't know anything about the course. It may, or may not have been appropriate to have it women only, it may or may not have been advertised that way, we just can't know unless the OP tells us

Can the posters who think OP should complain and be butthurt about her son not being allowed to join explain how exactly they think that will benefit feminism?

I don't care whether it will or it won't, to be honest, I do enough work on that. But while I am a feminist, I am also a mother of sons, and I don't see why they should be any less important to me than my daughters.
If my son was being rejected for no good reason, I would have a problem with that just the same as I would for my daughter.

Lots of interesting points on this thread, but to return to the basics, OP wanted to book hers & 2 teens onto a one-day course. Tutor suggested male teen was not welcome.
Complain to the course organiser.

Absolutely agree that there is a need for safe spaces for women, but this is not the issue in hand.

Complain, and be clear why you have now not booked on at all.