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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Son not welcome at sewing workshop

376 replies

Cheryl39 · 20/07/2017 21:15

Just tried to sign up for me, my 16 year old daughter and 18 year old son to join a one day sewing workshop and the tutor was very unwelcoming about my son joining. She said the workshops are mainly attended by women and the group as a whole might be uncomfortable talking about women's issues with a young man present. I feel really sad about this and so have not signed up.....is the tutor being discriminatory......what are your thoughts?

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 10:11

It's about reinforcing ridiculous gender stereotypes that sewing is for women

Or in Vestal's case engineering isn't for girls , even a one day course, unless it can be done in a safe man free environment.

I find the position outlined by Vestal deeply depressing- no activity can ever be done in a mixed sex basis.

My own view is the OP was hoping for ridiculous, OTT, responses- she didn't get them (although a few posters conflated this one day course into a full scale male invasion; at least one poster managed some spectacular sexist stereotyping and as Seneca pointed out there was the usual casual ageism thrown in) but if that was her aim she can be happy after reading Vestal's post.

toosexyforyahshirt · 22/07/2017 10:17

So a woman can only give sewing courses for women who would rather have it be women only, for whatever reason (such as trying on clothes) if she can afford to donate her time for free?

Yes, actually. Because it is illegal to refuse to provide you with goods, facilities or services because you are a man or a woman (except in very limited circumstances).

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 10:17

This is it - it's all wild speculation because we don't know anything about the course. It may, or may not have been appropriate to have it women only, it may or may not have been advertised that way, we just can't know unless the OP tells us

We do and she did.

She said it was advertised as a one day workshop with no indication whatsoever it was women only. If you Google "one day sewing workshop" you will get 100s of results. They are aimed at beginners and it appears you will end up with a cushion cover or a make up bag. Some of them even have pictures of male attendees.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 10:21

Oh and as for all this taking your clothes off and being measured- personally I have no desire to get down to my undewear and have my measurements take in front of a group of women I don't either.

grannytomine · 22/07/2017 10:23

What has being short got to do with it?

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 22/07/2017 10:24

Can the posters who think OP should complain and be butthurt about her son not being allowed to join explain how exactly they think that will benefit feminism?

Well, (assuming that it was advertised as a general class, not one specifically for women) - by encouraging both men and women to attend it's a step towards making these skills acceptable for both sexes to do as a hobby, which is good for women because a) they will be less likely to be expected to sew on their husband's buttons and take up their trousers and b) other hobbies that are more male dominated would be more likely to become more mixed.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 22/07/2017 10:26

What has being short got to do with it?

Absolutely nothing to do with sewing (although I have had to use a box for the sewing pedal on occasion).

Everything to do with how intimidating a situation can be if you're significantly smaller than everyone around you.

WinifredAtwellsOtherPiano · 22/07/2017 10:35

Lorna wasn't robbed - she froze in the Japanese pattern challenge and had to be rescued by the two blokes. Neil threw the win that had his for the taking from day one away with the insane skanklet concoction.

(God I miss Sewing Bee)

toosexyforyahshirt · 22/07/2017 10:36

What has being short got to do with it?

Apparently it means that you will feel intimidated by the tall scary men in an engineering class.

Does that mean tall women can do engineering then?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 10:37

Being short was referred to in the context of being a woman in an engineering class. Hardly a helpful attitude, if feminists are going to complain there are not enough women in STEM. It was a classroom situation, not walking home alone in the dark.

grannytomine · 22/07/2017 10:40

Really. I'm well below average height and I've never felt it was a problem. How sad. When I was younger I fancied being taller as clothes always seem to hang so much better but it never occurred to me that it would make a difference to how intimidated I felt. I think you'd have to be an Amazonian warrior to feel that your physical dimensions would be of any use.

grannytomine · 22/07/2017 10:41

So if you are short, like me, you are expecting the teacher/lecturer/instructor and his class of men to attack you but if you were 6 inches taller it would be OK. God I feel old some days.

PencilsInSpace · 22/07/2017 10:46

Providing services for women only is perfectly legal if it can be shown to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. See Schedule 3: Part 7 of the EA. See also wider discussion from the Women's Resource Centre. It's worth also reading the full PDF linked on that page.

In OP's case, if the group was not advertised as for women only then he should be allowed to attend.

PencilsInSpace · 22/07/2017 10:47

'Legitimate aims' includes stuff like overcoming disadvantage, meeting needs that are different from other groups' needs and increasing participation.

donquixotedelamancha · 22/07/2017 10:54

"And would you really fight for your daughter to get into a one day engineering course where there are only males who you know do not want her there?"

Oh god yes. This is literally how women first became doctors, lawyers etc. A sewing class for a man is obviously not equivalent, but the principle is the same and it is the widespread acceptance of that principle that will mean my DDs don't have to have the same battles.

"So a woman can only give sewing courses for women who would rather have it be women only, for whatever reason (such as trying on clothes) if she can afford to donate her time for free?"

Yes. Or set up a private members club. That is the hard fought for legal position.

"And, most importantly, most people have been supportive of the OP's son finding a class he is welcome at."

I'm sure Marie Curie and Elizabeth Blackwell stuck to places they were welcome in case existing practitioners felt uncomfortable. I think if we all followed this sage advice the world would be a completely egalitarian place already.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 10:58

"And, most importantly, most people have been supportive of the OP's son finding a class he is welcome at."

No. I was supportive of the OP being irritated that her son was refused a place on this one for no good reason.

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 11:00

Rosalind Franklin also did incredible work despite being patronised and belittled by those around her, not that she should have had to put up with it of course.

I don't see why a boy or man should be denied access to a one day sewing workshop; in fact I think it's rather unfair on him.

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 11:02

I hope the OP's son does find a class he's welcome at but I think it's quite a shame in the scenario outlined he wasn't welcomed at the workshop he tried to sign up for.

EBearhug · 22/07/2017 11:03

I did a car maintenance evening class many years ago back when I got my first car. It was mostly women with a young man whose parents had said he couldn't have a car until he'd done the course and I think one other man. The course leader said it was usually like that - women are more likely to admit to a lack of knowledge and do something about it, but it's difficult for men to do that, particularly in male dominated areas where they should have absorbed the knowledge by osmosis as a baby or something. Doesn't happen so much the other way round - women are more likely to think, "I'm the only woman who can't do this, I need to do something about it," rather than, "...so I daren't show my face."

It's not all about gender stereotypes - some people are the sort more likely to do courses than others, and I don't think there's such a clear gender split there. I need a good Venn diagram to show how the sets of people who do courses and the people who don't do courses intersect with those who do courses in stereotypically female activities and those who do courses in stereotypically male activities and those who are worried about doing courses where their sex is in the minority, and...

(You're all lucky my phone isn't capable of doing this.)

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 11:06

I am also a mother of sons, and I don't see why they should be any less important to me than my daughters

I doubt anyone would say they should be but society in general would deem your sons to be of greater value than your daughters, who are likely to face considerable sexist discrimination in many forms.

toosexyforyahshirt · 22/07/2017 11:12

Which is why I work in several different areas on womens issues.

But on a personal level, I also need to look after the interests of my sons.

PencilsInSpace · 22/07/2017 11:14

See also EHRC's guide - What equality law means for your business page 16 - Separate services for men and women and single-sex services.

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 11:18

But on a personal level, I also need to look after the interests of my sons.

All parents have to look after the interests of their children. It's your daughters who are likely to face issues due to their sex though. It's great you're also fighting for them through your work.

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 11:32

But on a personal level, I also need to look after the interests of my sons.

toosexy, I think this too is a wider issue. If feminists, in their personal lives, ignore the interests of their sons, how can they influence their socialisation so they are well adjusted and respect women's equality? If, for example, the OP did not support her son attending a sewing group (that expressed no other aim apart from sewing), he was interested in, this reinforces gender stereotypes. Sewing should be seen as and is a useful skill for men or women.

BertrandRussell · 22/07/2017 12:23

"If feminists, in their personal lives, ignore the interests of their sons, how can they influence their socialisation so they are well adjusted and respect women's equality"

Can I ask what makes you think feminists ignore the interests of their sons?