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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Corbyn speaks about trans rights

165 replies

MacaroonMama · 19/07/2017 10:45

Haven't posted on this board before but I do read it often - sorry if I get the link wrong.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may

So do we need to remind Jeremy Corbyn that while supporting all minorities is important, it should NOT be bought at the price of women's rights being eroded and women's funding being cut and women's spaces being invaded?

A while back, I wrote to my MP about that private members' bill changing 'sex' to 'gender' as a protected characteristic, but he didn't reply (third time! useless!) - what is happening with that?

I am going to write again to my MP and maybe Corbyn too.

What do people think? I don't dislike Corbyn at all, And I honestly do wonder if it is a bit of trans rights being much more fashionable than women's rights!

(Please note I do not want to offend anyone, I just am worried about the rights of women and girls in our society today.)

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AssignedMentalAtBirth · 22/07/2017 14:29

Has Kezia Dugdale or Ruth Davidson made any comment on this issue? I doubt that they would relish being told that they have to suck a lady dick

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 15:30

I'm not aware of comments other than Davidson made it clear she would not support any concessions to the DUP on gay rights.

RogueBiscuit · 22/07/2017 23:20

I'm pretty upset. I've had a conversation with my very well educated sister about this. She totally supports it, and it goes without saying she thinks less of me for my veiws. Wtf. It's like she's been brainwashed it really is. She's convinced they're being killed on a daily basis.

Where are the news reports? Where's the manhunt or the outraged family members of the victims? Where's the demands for cctv in men's bathrooms? Why aren't people worried their own child ( or themselves) might be mistaken for trans and killed? There's just no evidence to support any of this shit.

I want to respond but I don't want to fall out. Has anyone had any success discussing this with other people?

FunctionalAnatomy · 23/07/2017 03:51

Rogue Has anyone had any success discussing this with other people?

Amongst others, two stand out - two male friends I used to have particularly thoughtful political/other discussions with:
Friend 1 - hadn't really thought about trans thing, was vaguely supportive. After two sentences agreed with me.

Friend 2 - educated in politics and philosophy. Very political. Could talk for hours about various power structures, class analysis etc. Definitely had GCSE biology (Hmm). Despite admitting (without prompting!) that issues around transmen and tranwomen are a bit different "because men aren't an oppressed class" he still couldn't wouldn't join the dots, endorsed non-scientific claims about the nature of biological sex, and generally appeared brainwashed and unable to have the most basic debate or fact-check. Like a different person.

I don't think facts actually help persuade the hardcore trans allies. I think we actually need to look into de-programming cult members and things to understand.

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this with your sister. Flowers

DonkeySkin · 23/07/2017 05:32

RogueBiscuit, part of the problem with your sister is she is probably getting a great deal of pyschological satisfaction out of championing the cause of trans-identified males - satisfaction that she could in no way get from advocating for a group of vulnerable women (say, the homeless and imprisoned women whom gender ID laws are going to severely harm). I find that with many women, they love the idea of 'rescuing' a group of males whom they see as extremely vulnerable, of casting themselves as the heroes of these (supposedly) super-vulnerable men who allegedly love women so much they want to be us. And make no mistake, it is the fact of MTTs' maleness that prompts some women to champion them so passionately: it's got nothing to do with really believing they are women - quite the opposite.

Therefore it's hard to get through to them by quoting crime statistics, etc., because this is all about an ideal they have in their heads, and as for getting them to care about the harm to actual women and girls that self-ID of gender will cause - forget about it.

DonkeySkin · 23/07/2017 06:52

FunctionalAnatomy, that's interesting that you were able to persuade one friend almost instantly, and the philosophically minded one not at all. I wonder if the latter's education featured a lot of postmodern philosophers? It seems that people steeped in postmodernism are the most vulnerable to magical thinking about biological sex not existing.

This is going to be a bit long, but I've had many arguments about gender identity in real life and online, and I've thought a lot about the best way to cut through the propaganda and make people think. I've convinced my male partner, a gay male friend, two female friends and my mother, all of whom were previously more or less pro-trans, with variations of the following arguments. (Note: All of those conversations took place face to face - I think it would have gone differently if I'd tried to argue with them on Facebook about it, due to the performative nature of social media.)

First of all, I think the most crucial thing is not to argue on the terms set by trans activists, and, especially, to speak plainly rather than using the Orwellian language they demand, which is deliberately designed to linguistically erase biological sex and obscure the power relations between men and women.

So don't say 'trans women', say 'trans-identified males'. And don't frame the issue as being about the competing rights of 'women and trans women'. Most people will always agree that the former should cede to the latter, especially because to them a 'trans woman' is an old-school transsexual who has got rid of his penis, so what are us silly bitches even worried about, eh?

Talk instead about the abolition of sex segregation in prisons, hospital wards, women's shelters, changing rooms and sports (as well as the abolition of reliable sex-based crime statistics), because that is what enshrining 'gender identity' into law actually does. Talk about how many men who are now identifying as 'trans women' have no significant sex dysphoria and are what used to be known as fetishistic cross-dressers. Point out that under self ID of gender, 'trans women' are legally and practically indistinguishable from men as a group. This isn't about letting a well-defined, numerically tiny group of males with sex dysphoria into women's spaces. It is actually about the abolition of sex as a meaningful political and legal category, as well as enshrining a deeply regressive understanding of gender into law.

Don't get into debates about the supposedly sky-high rates of trans suicide and murder (although do take the time to point out that trans-identified males commit violent and sexual crimes at the same rate as other males). Talk instead about how 'gender identity' itself is a sexist and irrational belief system that has no objective qualities. Ask them what it means to claim that a male can 'feel' female and vice versa. How, exactly, can a man 'feel like' a woman? What characterises this 'woman brain' or 'woman soul' that can supposedly exist in male bodies? Point out that children are being sterilised and given dangerous drugs in the service of the insanely sexist and illogical notion that a male child can be born with a 'female soul' inside him and vice versa. You may not get through to everyone instantly, but just by raising these questions you will have planted seeds in people's minds that maybe the trans issue isn't as straightforward as they thought.

I also think that short, clear statements are best for cutting through:

Eg, simply stating: 'A woman is an adult human female, not a feeling in a man's head', is an effective counter to the 'trans women are women' catechism.

Even just stating 'transgender ideology harms women' out loud helps to make people think. Maybe some women who had been previously unthinkingly supportive of trans rights, while they may not agree with you right away, will have had the notion that it is permissible to question this planted in their heads, and when they see something that is not right (say, a story about a male murderer wanting to go to a women's prison), they will have a frame of reference for 'harm to women' in their heads that they can slot this into.

Instead of desperately defending ourselves against charges that we are 'bigots' for rejecting gender identity doctrine, feminists are strongest when we calmly challenge the illogical and sexist nature of the doctrine itself, and when we point out the real-world harmful effects that it is having.

Datun · 23/07/2017 07:16

Rogue

I've read a couple of articles which analyse the murder of trans-people where it says they are actually at a lower risk than women in general. Percentage wise.

The murder statistics are always used in pro trans arguments.

I often come across the study, but I haven't actually copied it. Next time I see it, I will post it to you.

Try not to lose heart. I have read so many accounts of women who say they had fully drunk the Kool-Aid, but gradually they realised. A lightbulb moment occurs, and suddenly it clicks.

You might let your sister know that her sexual orientation (whatever it is) is now transphobic.

If she is straight and does not consider a transman as a potential partner because they have a vagina, she is transphobic.

If she is gay and does not consider a transwoman, with or without a penis as a partner, she is transphobic.

I can't imagine many people who are supportive of the trans-ideology realise that unless they think sexual orientation is a choice, they are being transphobic.

Datun · 23/07/2017 07:27

rogue

Here is the article analysing trans murder rates.

medium.com/athena-talks/trans-murder-rates-the-data-120b60b19cb4

I don't know which country you're in, but here in the UK, there hasn't been a single murder of a transwoman.

Whilst 2 to 3 women a week are still murdered.

Not that murder statistics should be used to claim you can change sex.

None of it makes sense in any case. Transwomen will consistently reject the idea of unisex, or gender neutral toilets, in favour of the ladies.

Because it's not about safety, it's about validation.

If toilets were all unisex, they would be at exactly the same risk as they claim they are in the men's. Unless they think the presence of women is going to protect them.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/07/2017 07:42

As I understand it, the murder statistics come from the US where a lot of transpeople of colour in particular use prostitution to pay their medical expenses. So they are at massively high risk of murder because they are prostitutes - as indeed are women who are prostitutes (I think I read a statistic saying that women in prostitution were something like 20 times more likely to be murdered than women in the general population). Take out the confounding factor of prostitution and the murder rate for trans people drops back down to that for white men.

Ditto the infamous suicide risk. The much vaunted "study of more than 2000" was in fact a study of 2000 young people as a whole of whom less than 30 were trans. And since being trans among teenagers is strongly correlated with mental health issues and with being on the autistic spectrum, the high suicide rate among this very, very small sample could well have been due to other factors (hard to tell, since the sample was actually very very small despite the way Mermaids spin it).

Datun · 23/07/2017 08:33

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog

I agree that the suicide statistics are disingenuously presented. Yes, trans youth are vulnerable, but no more so than non trans, according to the NHS.

Jeremy Corbyn speaks about trans rights
Jeremy Corbyn speaks about trans rights
cuirderussie · 23/07/2017 12:33

I was thinking of poor Jazz Jennings today and I wonder if it ever occurred to those around him that he would probably grow up to be an effeminate gay man and have a happy normal life. I certainly know quite a few gay men who were like Jazz for a while as kids, liking "girly" things, insisting they were girls. What they really meant as kids was that they didn't feel like the gender stereotypes pushed on them because of their sex (some lesbians I know had similar experiences). Looks like Jazz's parents are either really homophobic or have no imagination.

nauticant · 23/07/2017 14:05

I think we actually need to look into de-programming cult members and things to understand.

There is so much emotion and "learned instinct" overriding facts and reality that I think for many an emotional impact will be needed to make them think about this from another perspective. This could come from a sufficient number of people whose lives have been ruined to come forward and say "look at was has been done to me, is that right?" I think it'll require a fair number of Jazz Jennings. But hopefully it will come earlier than that.

Datun · 23/07/2017 14:43

nauticant

I agree. It's going to take people who were allowed to make these lifelong decisions when they were 11 years old.

Doubtless, Jazz Jennings thinks his parents are acting in his best interests. which, maybe they are. I don't think there's anything malicious involved in this.

It's misguided, mistaken, ignorant and selfish though.

Someone growing up without a sex drive, not knowing, particularly, what they are missing, then feeling capable of blaming their parents, who they believe might well have had their best interests at heart, might well struggle to make a stand.

If Jazz has surgery, the lifelong dilation and problems might well be something they would take issue with. If they don't have surgery, they will never be able to have sex properly. Again they might make a stand.

But which ever way you cut it up, going against your parents, blaming them, and not being the big success story they thought you were, is going to be a nightmare.

PowderGreen · 28/07/2017 23:14

For murder statistics in the USA I found this article very useful:

medium.com/@julian.vigo/the-invisible-woman-gender-identity-in-the-age-of-neoliberalism-33f9e1203b0a

BetsyM00 · 28/07/2017 23:58

Going back to what @AssignedMentalAtBirth mentioned near the beginning of the thread about the Scottish Government's current consultation on gender neutral toilets in schools, I have found the link if anyone wants to contribute:
consult.scotland.gov.uk/school-infrastructure/updating-of-the-school-premises/

Consultation paper: consult.scotland.gov.uk/school-infrastructure/updating-of-the-school-premises/user_uploads/schoolpremises-1.pdf. See p14

(Apologies if I've missed that these have already been posted.)

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