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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Jeremy Corbyn speaks about trans rights

165 replies

MacaroonMama · 19/07/2017 10:45

Haven't posted on this board before but I do read it often - sorry if I get the link wrong.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may

So do we need to remind Jeremy Corbyn that while supporting all minorities is important, it should NOT be bought at the price of women's rights being eroded and women's funding being cut and women's spaces being invaded?

A while back, I wrote to my MP about that private members' bill changing 'sex' to 'gender' as a protected characteristic, but he didn't reply (third time! useless!) - what is happening with that?

I am going to write again to my MP and maybe Corbyn too.

What do people think? I don't dislike Corbyn at all, And I honestly do wonder if it is a bit of trans rights being much more fashionable than women's rights!

(Please note I do not want to offend anyone, I just am worried about the rights of women and girls in our society today.)

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MagicalRealist · 20/07/2017 11:44

Datun I hope you're right and that the tide may still turn.

MelsMam · 20/07/2017 11:51

Labour have lost my vote!!

NoLoveofMine · 20/07/2017 11:52

This must be about Labour needing the youth vote.

Partly but it doesn't surprise me from Corbyn. My impression of him has never been of someone who's particularly interested in feminism or women's rights and would probably sacrifice them on this without a second thought. It's another reason the general worship of him grates on me a little.

Datun · 20/07/2017 12:06

ArcheryAnnie

I agree it does no good to be complacent. Owen Jones is a twit, steeped in male privilege, though.

But I would like to see someone who is not a member of the LGBT community stand up and say lesbians should sleep with transwomen. Because by that token they are erasing any sexual orientation whatsoever in one fell swoop. Both homosexual and heterosexual.

If lesbians should sleep with transwomen then gay men should sleep with transmen. And straight men should sleep with transwomen, straight women with transmen.

I honestly can't possibly understand how the LGBT community can, on the one hand, say transwomen are women and homosexuality doesn't exist, whilst at the same time representing homosexuals!

No one on the planet thinks that your sex is determined by your feelings when it comes to actually having sex. So how can anyone agree with that premise when it comes to other dealings?

Even transpeople don't believe it. Otherwise transwomen would sleep with each other instead of targeting lesbians. But they don't want lady dick anymore than lesbians do.

Datun · 20/07/2017 12:06

ArcheryAnnie

I agree it does no good to be complacent. Owen Jones is a twit, steeped in male privilege, though.

But I would like to see someone who is not a member of the LGBT community stand up and say lesbians should sleep with transwomen. Because by that token they are erasing any sexual orientation whatsoever in one fell swoop. Both homosexual and heterosexual.

If lesbians should sleep with transwomen then gay men should sleep with transmen. And straight men should sleep with transwomen, straight women with transmen.

I honestly can't possibly understand how the LGBT community can, on the one hand, say transwomen are women and homosexuality doesn't exist, whilst at the same time representing homosexuals!

No one on the planet thinks that your sex is determined by your feelings when it comes to actually having sex. So how can anyone agree with that premise when it comes to other dealings?

Even transpeople don't believe it. Otherwise transwomen would sleep with each other instead of targeting lesbians. But they don't want lady dick anymore than lesbians do.

Lottapianos · 20/07/2017 12:22

'Do you agree that lesbians should sleep with women with penises?'

A great example of the utter eye-popping bonkersness of this whole issue!

Datun · 20/07/2017 12:31

Lottapianos

I've lost count of the number of women who call other women transphobic, and then go on to loftily say we should all be inclusive, treat transwomen with respect and allow them in our spaces, and support them in feminism, adding but I'm not sure lesbians should be actually criticised for not wanting to sleep with them.

Only to then get piled on by transactivists calling them transphobic bitches, cissexist hate mongers, causing literal violence to transwomen everywhere.

It's a turning point for many lib fems, who had previously been staunch trans allies.

Look what's happening to Laci Green, as an example.

venusinscorpio · 20/07/2017 16:09

Bring it on. It's the only way they'll see the reality of how misogynistic a movement it is.

BelligerentGardenPixies · 20/07/2017 16:57

I am on the Facebook thread and although one particular MRA blocked me or has deleted the thread ensuing from his original comment, it seems that most other comments are still standing. The threads don't show all comments (you can change the settings to see all comments) and they also don't keep them in chronological order which gets confusing when people are responding to other comments and they get jumbled.

Rogue - I'm raging that you have been banned! There are plenty of blokes on there making derisory/transphobic comments, what's the betting they don't get banned?

BelligerentGardenPixies · 20/07/2017 17:00

I do think there is a healthy strata of dissenting voices, that are putting reasonably cogent arguments forward on the Facebook thread - moreso than you would have seen a year ago, I think.

Datun · 20/07/2017 19:45

*BelligerentGardenPixies

I do hope so. I was thinking about Jazz Jennings. The face of a girl, the body of a woman produced by artificial hormones, the genitalia of a prepubescent boy, no libido, loss of sexual function.

And Jeremy Corbyn, in his ignorance and arrogance, is promoting it.

Datun · 20/07/2017 19:50

And not enough penile material to create a neovagina.

If they use his colon to find a way around it, he has no libido anyway, so he will be able to have sex, after a fashion, but he won't want it.

And he's permanently sterile.

Elendon · 20/07/2017 19:58

Apparently on a forum I'm a 'misandrist' for suggesting to a male that he should have sorted out his contraception if he didn't want a child. From the females on that forum. His excuse was he believed the women (yes, twice this happened), when they said they were on contraception. They were trapping him into unwanted parenthood and untrustworthy. He gets to preen. And is soothed.

I give up.

BelligerentGardenPixies · 20/07/2017 20:06

Oh God, yes, Jazz Jennings is tragic but what is more so is that his story is just a precursor to a generation of children who will have no functional genitalia, no sex life and quite probably an inability to form functioning adult relationships due to potential personality disorders brought about from the complex trauma they are experiencing.

Corbyn's bandwagoning, virtue signaling bullshit is so dangerous (and I am reasonably affiliated with his politics).

SoNouveau · 20/07/2017 20:16

Womenhavenotgotpenises will be my next nn.

I am so disappointed in Jeremy Corbyn over this, I think it's ill thought through, if at all and not a little virtue signalling.
You can't say anything even vaguely gender critical anywhere now, the Labour forums attack at the merest hint, no discussion, nothing.
Fucking Brave New World.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 20/07/2017 20:18

Poor, poor Jazz.
Societies have had all kinds of excuses for mutilating boys, whether religious or musical or whatever. This is the latest incarnation.
(Girls get mutilated too, of course, with a different set of justifications.)

Datun · 20/07/2017 20:21

BelligerentGardenPixies

I feel so sorry for that poor child and infuriated that she is being promoted as some kind of poster child.

She is asking her dad how much of a vagina does a man see when you have a sex life with him. He's too embarrassed to answer. She is worried that her vagina won't look right. It's such a childish question.

Um, yes in a regular sex life the man see your vagina! All of it.

She wants to encourage boys to ask her out - I'm just like any other girl. A girl with the penis of a young boy.

She's worried that people will want a physical relationship with her as an 'experiment'.

I'm sure there is a decent chap out there who will love Jazz for who she is. But I'm not at all sure it will be the bronzed, jock she is hoping for.

She has been marketed by her parents, who are coining it. I don't suppose anyone is going to be very much interested in a 30-year-old transwoman who is no longer going to bring in the TV viewings.

Her mum constantly says we only followed her lead. Way to distance yourself from your appalling decisions, you awful woman.

I honestly can't believe people are buying this. If you believe in transgenderism, you absolutely must believe in this.

I predict that her life will not turn out well. And transphobia will be blamed.

BelligerentGardenPixies · 20/07/2017 21:08

Oh yeah, it'll be all the 'transphobic' gender critical feminists who will have ruined her life, not her avaristic parents.

How could her father answer honestly? It would open up the fact that they are lying to her about the realities of her body. Horrid.

QueenLaBeefah · 20/07/2017 21:50

But how old was Jazz when she asked her dad this question? She seems extremely immature. A Hetrosexual man like vaginas - not penises and especially not little boy penises and no amount of campaigning is going to change that. Why was this not explained?

DJBaggySmalls · 20/07/2017 21:55

I'm extremely concerned that we are about to move into a time where a significant percentage of a generation has been sterilised and kept in a permanent state of juvenile behaviour.
I cant imagine how this can end well.

QueenLaBeefah · 20/07/2017 22:00

Give it 5/10 yrs and we'll start seeing a lot of grown up trans children suing the arse off various experts.

Datun · 20/07/2017 22:07

QueenLaBeefah

What crushes me is that Jazz won't know what she has missed in terms of a sex life. She may not have much of a reaction to it.

QueenLaBeefah · 20/07/2017 22:12

If Jazz hasn't been through puberty then she won't have a sex drive. She is going to struggle to find a boyfriend and again why wasn't this bloody explained? And if she is so immature that she can't use her imagination about what men see when having sex then not going through puberty might explain her naivety.

Datun · 20/07/2017 22:24

QueenLaBeefah

I'm not sure how this works, and to be honest I don't think anyone else does either. This is guinea pig time.

So as a boy his puberty was delayed. He had cross sex hormones which gave him breasts, a more rounded figure and a higher voice. But did nothing to his genitals except kept them prepubescent.

The puberty blockers would have been given three months into puberty. There is a scale (Tanner) and hormones are measured to make sure it's the right time, so possibly between the ages of 11 and 13.

But I have no idea whether the cross sex hormones would have allowed his brain to mature, unlike his genitalia. I have read articles that says the brain can't mature because of the puberty blockers, though.

For surgery, they take the head of the penis and turn it into their version of a clitoris. But as the head of his penis hasn't been allowed to develop, I'm assuming that's where the sexual function is being called compromised.

I'm not sure he even wants the surgery. I don't watch the program, just read articles. But what would the surgery give him? A hole to be fucked with no enjoyment?

Which has to be dilated for the rest of his life, to prevent it closing up.

And yes, from the clips I have seen where he is talking to the doctor (a cousin of the mother), it seemed to come as a surprise to him.

What a mess.

OlennasWimple · 20/07/2017 22:27

I feel desperately sorry for Jazz. Having a mini-me doll and a TV series is no substitute for being a fully functioning adult able to form mature relationships, is it. Echoes of Michael Jackson to my mind, and look how well he turned out Hmm