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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Corbyn speaks about trans rights

165 replies

MacaroonMama · 19/07/2017 10:45

Haven't posted on this board before but I do read it often - sorry if I get the link wrong.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may

So do we need to remind Jeremy Corbyn that while supporting all minorities is important, it should NOT be bought at the price of women's rights being eroded and women's funding being cut and women's spaces being invaded?

A while back, I wrote to my MP about that private members' bill changing 'sex' to 'gender' as a protected characteristic, but he didn't reply (third time! useless!) - what is happening with that?

I am going to write again to my MP and maybe Corbyn too.

What do people think? I don't dislike Corbyn at all, And I honestly do wonder if it is a bit of trans rights being much more fashionable than women's rights!

(Please note I do not want to offend anyone, I just am worried about the rights of women and girls in our society today.)

OP posts:
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Elendon · 19/07/2017 14:09

I will agree that left wing misogynists exists. But why should misogyny be the default of the right?

Collidascope · 19/07/2017 14:10

Seems Caroline Flint tried to raise the issue regarding men in women's bathrooms and was called on to apologise by Young Labour Women. This is what's so infuriating. No debate. Someone brave sticks their head above the parapet and all hell breaks lose. 'They're transphobic, it's hate speech, literal violence.'

olliegarchy99 · 19/07/2017 14:15

elendon
Great hijack of the thread to attack socialism
it is a labour party (namely Corbyn) who is 'urging' and 'demanding' the legitimate government to bend to his will.

That is not a hijack of the thread in which the title mentions Jeremy Corbyn - Hmm
Next he will maintain he really 'won' the election.
It is telling that the 2004 act was under the auspices of nulabour.

Elendon · 19/07/2017 14:19

regarding the links, prostitution in Nevada has not been outlawed for two centuries now.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

Elendon · 19/07/2017 14:20

But Corbyn is not a socialist. Okay?

Elendon · 19/07/2017 14:23

Nulabour - what are you? A hangover from the noughties? Next you'll be bringing up Bliarites. (see what I did there?)

Elendon · 19/07/2017 14:25

I agree with Collidascope. But it's not just females within Young Labour (there is Labour Women, you might be confused), it's men too. Especially the men.

Elendon · 19/07/2017 14:28

Last post.

If anyone thinks that an 'I'm all right Jack' attitude is confined to the Tory party, then they are very much deluded.

Callmejudith · 19/07/2017 14:41

I have lurked on these threads for an age but this has made my blood boil. I have replied to Corbyn on Twitter and written to my MP. Absolutely ludicrous.

sticklebrix · 19/07/2017 15:16

Plenty of misogyny evident on the right and the left IMO. The right are just less concerned about putting it on display.

OddBoots · 19/07/2017 15:18

So the people pushing this either think

a) It is more likely that women would claim to be men to get an inheritance of some kind in favour of first born men than men would claim to be women for sexual gratification from the access of women's spaces and women.

Or

b) Women getting the inheritance given to a first born male is wrong but men using unwilling women for sexual gratification is okay.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 19/07/2017 15:22

This is great

bannedbytrans.wordpress.com/read-first-introduction/ and follow the link to the full article

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 19/07/2017 15:52

Helen Lewis from the New Statesman

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-right-trans-people-should-be-allowed-self-identify-their-gender

Collidascope · 19/07/2017 16:00

Helen Lewis is great. She's done a few very good gender critical articles.

DJBaggySmalls · 19/07/2017 16:05

Jeremy Corbyn and Maria Miller should abolish primogeniture, and allow women and FTM trans men to inherit the family peerage.

Ktown · 19/07/2017 16:05

Mumsnet are in a perfect position to open a supportive of trans but not supportive of unscientific nonsense discussion on this.
They just need the balls!!Wink

nauticant · 19/07/2017 16:15

That is a decent article. I read it with a growing anticipation the "But ..." but no, she kept it balanced and sensible all the way through.

BigDeskBob · 19/07/2017 16:26

I don't understand why sex can be changed on legal documents especially birth certificates. Sex isn't something that can be changed. If male and female means nothing, why bother recording it on the first place.

Changing my date of birth would do wonders to my CV and dating profile, can I wish away the true date and change my birth certificate?

IndominusRex · 19/07/2017 16:27

Only thing missing from that article was reference to crime statistics e.g 'women' rapists.

IAmTheWorwax · 19/07/2017 16:30

All those saying they are writing to Corbyn and their MPs, what is it you are saying and what affect will your MP have? I'm not the best at political stuff or writing letters but I would like to express how concerning I find this.
I couldn't care less if a man wants to wear a dress or make up, but I don't want to lose my women only spaces to allow them this.

sticklebrix · 19/07/2017 16:34

Great links Assigned. Thank you.

Iamtheworwax somewhere further down in feminist chat is a thread with examples of letters to MPs. I don't have time to look for a link ATM, but scroll through and you'll get to it eventually.

DixieFlatline · 19/07/2017 16:43

Not a fan of that Helen Lewis article, actually.

She seems to lose the thread when switching between describing sex segregation in prisons and trans people living in the prison estate of their 'professed gender'. Prisons are segregated on the basis of sex OR gender, surely, how can they be both? Or is she only trying to convey that prisons make exceptions for trans people? If so, she doesn't communicate it well, in my opinion.

Not convinced that women with naturally high testosterone levels are evidence of 'the blurry boundaries of biological sex', either.

IAmTheWorwax · 19/07/2017 16:45

Thank you stickle I will have a look

Datun · 19/07/2017 16:58

Ktown

What is gender?

Two schools of thought.

  1. Gender is simply the expression of femininity or masculinity. You can get masculine girls, feminine boys, or vice versa.

What constitutes masculinity and femininity changes over time and history.

Gender has been used to imply that femininity is solely a woman's domain, because it includes characteristics like being nurturing, passive, pretty, delicate. Politically those characteristics have been utilised to keep women in the home. The masculine characteristics of leadership, strength, clear thinking, etc, have been used to allow men to get educated and run the world.

Transsexuals used to want to present as women, but knew they were men, just wanted to present in a feminine way because they wanted to be treated as a woman. They perceived the treatment of women to be something that they would like themselves and felt that they could best express themselves in a 'womanly' way. It wasn't political and they did not see it as humans rights issue. If they passed they used the ladies and women allowed this as a courtesy.

In 2004 the gender recognition act made it possible to legally change your sex, based on a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

  1. The term gender has now been split into gender identity and gender expression as a result of objections, largely by feminists.

Gender expression still constitutes femininity or masculinity (appearance). But gender identity is now being characterised as an internal feeling, unprovable, unverifiable and entirely subjective as to whether you internally feel as though you are a man or a woman.

It can't be described in words, you just know.

Hence, numerous articles and studies trying to prove the existence of lady brains and men brains.

The theory being that it is your brain which dictates your sex, not your body.

Hence lady sticks and lesbians should sleep with women with penises.

I've tried to be neutral, but I may have left an opinion slip in, here and there...

But at least I didn't say fuck a thousand times.

Datun · 19/07/2017 17:06

Ktown

Sorry I missed off the rest of your questions. In terms of prison, currently I believe it is taken on a case by case basis. The prison authorities warned the government that people would exploit this law, but no one thought much of it at the time (except feminists).

It is definitely happening. Violent men are being housed with women. Both pre-and post op.

Women's sport is also now the domain of men who think they're women. They have to reduce their testerone levels in order to compete, but that doesn't take into account their bodies which would have benefited from going through puberty on testosterone and developing stronger muscles. The lowest limit that a man must achieve in order to compete is higher than any natal born woman can achieve.

However there has been a recent case of a boy at college in America competing as a girl, taking all the titles, without any kind of medical intervention at all. No hormones, no nothing. Just self identification.

Things are changing culturally far quicker than they are legally. But the law can't wait to catch up, it seems.

Many men have competed against women and won titles. I haven't seen women identifying as men being able to achieve this when competing against men.