All gender toilets

[MissBax]

Bit of a lurker on the fem chat usually but just wondered people's opinions on this.
At my university today I noticed they'd changed the women's toilets on one floor to "all gender" toilets. At first I thought ah ok that's not a big deal, there must be someone in the uni who is trans and that's why they've done it. But then when I came out of the toilets I noticed that the men's toilet and disabled toilet hadn't been changed. I can't understand the rationale of changing only the women's toilets? Or am I being overly sensitive? I'm not sure how I feel about it...

I'm sad about RHUL! I went there & it's very proud of its feminist history. College colours are purple & green like the suffragettes. It wasn't until the 70s that it allowed men in and when I went there was only about 1/3 men.

It makes me feel a little better that the article linked above was fairly insightful from a man who clearly feels that this is not okay.

It makes me laugh it really does. So there's this debate between TRAs and GCF's (Gender Critical Feminists) and more broadly women who don't neccessarily subscribe to this ideology about men in women's private spaces, including toilets. Women clearly point out that this is problematic. Yet, what happens? Trans / male privilege allows the opening up of women's private spaces to men, whereas man, who are not threatened or affected get their own spaces. Where does the privilege and power lie here?

So - are shewees any good? Anyone used one?

Having only tried them at Glastonbury I would say that they are easy and convenient the first time you use them but have a strange tendency to become fiendishly difficult as the night progresses!

I've just bought one. It's going to need some practise

I can't believe universities are doing this given the well publicised problems of sexual assault on university campuses - let's just create another space where predatory men can wait (without being questioned) for prey. And the trans population is what, at most 1%? So, the feelings of the 1% trumps the safety of 50%. Insanity. I get why disabled people would not want trans people in their hard won toilets, but given they are individual lockable rooms I can't help but feel this is a better solution than making women's toilets gender neutral. Or better yet, get rid of the urinals, put cubicles in that space and make the men's gender neutral. Or just replace communal toilets with individual ones. I've noticed a couple of restaurants have done this recently. It must be the way forward I think and then men will have to queue with the women - result!

Ineedacupofteadesperately

Toilets are the public face of the debate. But what about locker rooms, saunas, schools, trips, scholarships, etc.

It all comes down to the definition of woman, and who is entitled to claim it.

Would any of this have happened, i.e. unisex toilets, if it hadn't been for the trans agenda. Would anyone listen to some spotty teenager claiming they had multiple gender identities?

Agree Datun.

Regardless of how they dress or 'identify', it is another exercise of male power. Women feeling uncomfortable or unsafe in public spaces? It's nothing new.

I get why disabled people would not want trans people in their hard won toilets, but given they are individual lockable rooms I can't help but feel this is a better solution than making women's toilets gender neutral.

No. Again, this is not the solution. Making disabled toilets the gender-neutral option means that they are open to 100% of people, not just to disabled + the trans 1%. No bloody way should disabled people have the only loos they can access suddenly opened to everyone.

Datun yes agree entirely, I suppose what I was trying to say (not very well) was that given the well known problems of sexual assault at universities, the fact they've done this just beggars belief & shows how clearly they are prioritising the needs of the 1% over the 50% (or indeed the other 50% - men) and how worried we should be about all those other things. DH doesn't disagree with me (since I woke up to the danger to womens' safe spaces thanks to mumsnet) but thinks the things I'm worried about won't happen & the fears are overblown (perhaps a touch of the 'hysterical woman' mentality although I'll give him the benefit of the doubt ) but if this is actually happening I don't see how they can be. Imagine the impact on any female student who has been a victim of sexual assault of these changes?

Or just replace communal toilets with individual ones. I've noticed a couple of restaurants have done this recently. It must be the way forward I think and then men will have to queue with the women - result

My favourite bar has unisex toilets. I rarely stay long because they are filthy. I don't mean that they are never cleaned, I mean that the floor and seat is covered with piss and the san bin is often wedged open with rubbish. I don't find this so often in women's toilets, especially not the wee issue. Plus, I don't feel safe. This is a naice bar, by the way, not a student dive.

Lancelottie agree, it couldn't be gender neutral it would have to be disabled, trans (and where there are baby changing units mums and babies too). So it didn't become a free for all.

yetanother the restaurants I'm talking about have toilets that are individual rooms containing a toilet and sink etc- with proper full length locking doors that open directly into the main corridor so can't see how safety could be an issue? The ones I've been to have been clean, but it probably depends on the cleaning frequency.

DH doesn't disagree with me (since I woke up to the danger to womens' safe spaces thanks to mumsnet) but thinks the things I'm worried about won't happen & the fears are overblown

No criticism of you Ineedacupoftea (so do I) but it's very easy for him to say this. He's not the one whose space is at risk and also, as a man, has always lived with far less of the risk women and girls face simply being in public space due to our sex. He should try to be a little understanding of why so many are concerned and see that his own privilege is probably leading him to dismiss this as "overblown".

The restaurants I'm talking about have toilets that are individual rooms containing a toilet and sink etc- with proper full length locking doors that open directly into the main corridor so can't see how safety could be an issue? The ones I've been to have been clean, but it probably depends on the cleaning frequency.

I've had to use (or avoid using) unisex toilets in restaurants, bars and airports and I have never found them as clean as ones reserved just for women. In this bar it is as you describe, but tucked away out of sight. I won't use it. To be fair, there have been places where I have refused to use the women's because it hasn't looked safe.

I don't like the idea of unisex cubicles because I'm scared of being filmed. I know some people will think that is a disproportionate fear and no, I don't think all men go around hiding video cameras but it does happen and I have reason to worry about it. I've been to a couple of restaurants with unisex labelled cubicles and shared sink areas and I'm not comfortable with the shared sink area either.

Ineedacupofteadesperately

Unfortunately, your DH is wrong. Just Google transwomen in women's prison, you get dozens.

Like this one.

“The Plaintiffs have been forced to share intimate facilities with men, who allege they are women,” the Feb. 15 complaint states. “These men openly express their sexual desire for the women inmates, at times, in the showers, and bathrooms, while women are naked or partially clothed.
“The men expose themselves, intentionally, for their own sexual gratification, causing the Plaintiffs to suffer disgust, embarrassment, humiliation, stress, degradation, fear and loss of dignity.”

They were told they were prejudiced and their concerns were not warranted.

www.lipstickalley.com/showthread.php/1149547-Texas-Women-prisoners-forced-to-shower-with-trans-quot-women-quot-trans-quot-women-quot-openly-express-their-sexual-desire-for-the-women-inmates

I don't like shared sink space either.
I really resent the situation that women can't challenge men being in their private space any more.

FuckYeah

Me neither. I don't understand how women are fine with unisex loos.

Maybe if they're ultra modern and constantly cleaned. Or if there are 5 or 6 to choose from. Which limits the mess...

In a job I had, there was one loo, right behind where my (male) boss sat. Literally 2 feet.

It was clean and beautifully proportioned but I had to train myself to wee without being self conscious.

I'm not sure if it would be better, or worse, if he was actually in a cubicle right next to me.

Datun that is horrifying.

I meant the prison link, not the situation with your old boss although that sounds less than ideal too.....

Ineedacupofteadesperately

If you're having trouble persuading your DH that this is real, and happening now, there are quite a few Facebook pages that I have recently come across which highlight the issue.

Centering Women is quite a good one. It already assumes you know something about the subject though. So would probably be a relief for you in terms of seeing other people who get it. And it's fairly civil.

Exposing Trans Rights Activists is another.

Mostly, they just post screenshots of what activists are saying. It's an eye-opener. But you do need wine.

The commentators have reached Peak Trans, so sometimes it does descend into a bit of a bloodbath of fuck off, no you fuck off.

But the screenshots speak for themselves. But there is absolutely no denying, that when women say they are worried about men in their bathrooms, the answer to that is to threaten them.

Today 20:43 Ineedacupofteadesperately

I meant the prison link, not the situation with your old boss although that sounds less than ideal too.....

Haha. Yeah, I did do a double take!!

I was recently at Gatwick before 6am, and when I went to the toilets they were empty, quite distant from the main area, and a bit spooky.

It made me wonder what I would have felt if they had been gender neutral. I think I would have freaked if a man had come in at the same time as me, let alone sat in the next cubicle. If a man had come in and the toilets were "Ladies" then I could have legitimately rushed out and reported him. As gender neutral toilets, I would have been behaving in a discriminatory way if I had looked askance at him and hurried off.

You see, this is what confuses me. On one hand women are constantly told that we need to keep ourselves safe and not put ourselves in risky situations but then we're also being told that we need to accept men into our toilets and other spaces. If any woman objects to this then she is told she is being paranoid and to quit tarring all men with the same brush as not all men are predators.

I made this point on another thread on here recently but I think it's relevant here too and quite frankly it just makes me scratch my head in confusion. We can't constantly tell women that we need to take responsibility for our own personal safety but at the same time tell us that we need to welcome men into our spaces with open arms.

Call me cynical but I bet if a woman has to use the all gender toilets in a nightclub or deserted station and a man assaults her whilst she's in there then there will be countless people asking wtf she was doing in there, what did she expect using the gender neutral toilets in those situations, she should have taken more responsibility for her safety, etc.

So if we object to all gender toilets and object to not wanting to share with men then we are at the very least being paranoid and tarring all men with the same brush and at the very worst we are transphobic bigots. However if we use the all gender toilets and we are assaulted then that would be our fault for not being more careful. Either way, women just can't win.