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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

All gender toilets

159 replies

MissBax · 12/05/2017 18:43

Bit of a lurker on the fem chat usually but just wondered people's opinions on this.
At my university today I noticed they'd changed the women's toilets on one floor to "all gender" toilets. At first I thought ah ok that's not a big deal, there must be someone in the uni who is trans and that's why they've done it. But then when I came out of the toilets I noticed that the men's toilet and disabled toilet hadn't been changed. I can't understand the rationale of changing only the women's toilets? Or am I being overly sensitive? I'm not sure how I feel about it...

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 13/05/2017 08:31

I personally wouldn't muddy the waters by talking about being agender, which will just confuse them..

I think it would be useful for them to think about it for a minute to figure out that segregating on the lines of feelings can't work.

But yes, biology is the most important point.

But from now on if anyone calls me cis I will be bashing them on the head (metaphorically of course - not condoning violence) with my agender flag.

JaxingJump · 13/05/2017 08:34

I'm happy enough with genderfree toilets. I guess the practical issue of urinals is a bit behind. It might make sense ultimately to have all toilets and urinals in one public toilet area with cubicals for all.

Original poster
MissBax · 13/05/2017 08:54

Jaxing I dont have a problem with gender free / all gender toilets per se. As I said when I first noticed I didn't think much of it. It was only when I noticed that the men's on that floor hadn't been changed that I saw the inequity of it.
Why if I'm in a lecture, should men have nothing disrupted, yet women do - as is often the case? If I wanted some privacy I'd have to walk to a toilet on another floor. My uni isn't small and I'd miss 15-20 mins of a lecture. I'm actually pregnant at the moment so need to go alot.

OP posts:
sticklebrix · 13/05/2017 09:07

JaxingJump The thing is that very many women are not happy enough with mixed-sex toilets. What should they do?

Railgunner1 · 13/05/2017 09:24

it is bloody frightening that they are doing this at UNIVERSITY out of all places.
i'd get a bunch of girls to march into men's in protest. Wink

Original poster
MissBax · 13/05/2017 09:27

I'm a mature student (nearly 30) and I don't even think any of the younger girls would notice the inequity - I mentioned it to a few when I saw it and they just stared at me blankly...

OP posts:
Datun · 13/05/2017 09:49

Today 09:27 MissBax

I'm a mature student (nearly 30) and I don't even think any of the younger girls would notice the inequity - I mentioned it to a few when I saw it and they just stared at me blankly...

Which is why it would be better if you just went straight to the person responsible for the policy.

Send the email, print it off and take the paper version to the person as well.

Especially as you're pregnant. Pregnant women get caught short all the time. And especially towards the end, it can be a complete palaver having to go to the toilet.

The last thing you want is to be in a loo with a whole bunch of men.

Original poster
MissBax · 13/05/2017 10:01

Datun - agreed. I'll speak to someone on Monday - will let you all know what happens.

OP posts:
Ktown · 13/05/2017 10:04

Isn't it enough women have the sanitary bins for the smell and now we have to put up with men weeing on the floor and seat too.
I change in the female loos so could do without a man walking in thanks.

Datun · 13/05/2017 10:07

MissBax

I hesitate to suggest you play the pregnancy card, but actually this is exactly what it is all about.

You should have the right to be able to struggle with your tights, jeans, or if you are wearing a supportive 'bump belt', etc. Without squeezing yourself into a cubicle to avoid the male gaze.

It's the whole point of sex segregation.

And kudos to you for tackling this.

jellyfrizz · 13/05/2017 10:09

And kudos to you for tackling this.

Yes. Good luck MissBax!

sticklebrix · 13/05/2017 10:12

I change in the female loos so could do without a man walking in thanks.

My teenage DD does this sometimes (e.g. going straight from school to an activity with no changing facilities). There's not usually room to change in the cubicle with all your stuff and cubicles that men use are often too gross to change in anyway.

Another activity that women sometimes do in female toilets is breastfeed. Whether they are shamed into doing so or just prefer to feed in private.

sticklebrix · 13/05/2017 10:13

Forgot to say good luck MissBax!

BlueSunGreenMoon · 13/05/2017 10:36

It wasn't so many years ago that people were discussing the need for more public toilets for everyone, and increasing the ratio of provision of women and men 2:1 in favour of women. "Potty parity" in the states. In the UK, Dr Clara Greed has spoken much on this. Now that all seems to have been forgotten.

YorkshireTree · 13/05/2017 10:50

I would have suggested approaching the union women's officer 5 years ago but suspect that today it would be an exercise in extreme pointlessness.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/05/2017 11:34

They have done the same thing at my university. (I suppose it might be the same one). A few other women have expressed unhappiness about it but no one else is willing to join me in asking why it was thought to be a good idea.

Original poster
MissBax · 13/05/2017 12:10

saskia Oh really? Could quite possibly be the same one, are you going to take it further?

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/05/2017 12:27

Gender is a social construct. And there's no problem with female people who identify as trans, non-binary or dinosaur using the women's toilets

Where I work 'gender' has been officially defined in policy to designate "how you feel inside about whether you are male or female".

Sigh.

FuckYeah · 13/05/2017 12:37

I bumped into one of our two colleagues (both relatively new) who are MTT in the women's toilets at work. No gender neutral toilets just M, F and D. The women's are just flimsy stalls so you can hear everything and we also have a shower room with a little curtain as part of the deal. There's a bench along the side of the room near the sinks for putting your stuff on while you getting changed for your shower.

I didn't feel comfortable even just with her having heard me piss and us standing washing my hands and checking makeup in the mirror together after.

I now don't feel I can use the work shower in there any more which is stressing me out in the summer because I bike in to work.

And I know if I bring it up with HR they will give me a bollocking. It feels shit.

There are very few women in my workplace and the culture is very male dominated as it is. I have gone to cry in the women's toilets before when it's been particularly stressful to get away from it all. I feel guilty writing this. But it is how I feel.

FuckYeah · 13/05/2017 12:40

Shower room probably sounded more private than it is. It's basically a cubby hole at one end of the women's toilets with a shower curtain that you can draw across for privacy.

Datun · 13/05/2017 12:55

FuckYeah

That sounds shit. They are breaking the law though if the transwomen don't have a gender reassignment certificate.

That is still a requirement.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/05/2017 13:17

People should use the loos for their sex. It isn't up to women to validate the "identities" of transwomen. They are male, they know they are male, and as such they should use the facilities for males. Very few transwomen actually pass as women anyway, so it is hardly going to be a shock for male co-workers if a transwoman uses the gents. This crushing of women's rights to single sex space is making me so angry. We need space for our own sex only, loos, refuges, prisons etc. I would not want to use a loo that had open cubicles and was dual sex. I'm a survivor of assault and it would scare and stress me to the point where I simply wouldn't use those loos at all.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/05/2017 13:29

And yes, agree with women using loos to change in, feed a baby, change sanitary protection like mooncups, buy sanpro etc. My 12 year old dd has just started her periods. No way would she buy towels from a machine if she thought a man could see her. Would I want her changing in a loo a man could walk into NO I BLOODY WELL WOULD NOT. My Mum died recently, but she would have refused to use a dual sex loo, she was in her 80's, what would I have done with her then, let her wet herself? I am so angry reading this thread that I feel actually teary. This is not the world I want for my daughters, this world where male's feelings are more important than girls, women, and the elderly having safety, having dignity, having privacy.

FuckYeah · 13/05/2017 13:33

Thanks Datun.
I would happily campaign for an additional gender neutral toilet and shower at work, but it's the fact I have these two colleagues already using the women's toilets now.

I would not want them to feel I was campaigning against them personally, so I feel reluctant to raise it. And I can guess I would get some kind of HR warning about being potentially discriminatory.

I'm sure HR are happy with the status quo not to recommend to management that we spend extra money on additional new GN toilets because the senior team can feel really right on about their diversity stats which are appalling. Except they're not doing any accommodating in their own toilets.

I'm sure these two colleagues find things hard and I can imagine how uncomfortable using the men's toilets could be for them. They may have asked for GN toilets and been turned down. Who knows. I feel I shouldn't have to make another colleague feel unwelcome or personally attacked, or to be made to feel uncomfortable myself.

It's just the assumption that women's toilets are some kind of luxury or anachronism. Ours give no individual privacy. They rely on some kind of idea of privacy via understanding within a group.

Sorry for the PP in the university making GN toilets out of W. That's crap. I thought universities were meant to be progressive!

Datun · 13/05/2017 17:05

They may have asked for GN toilets and been turned down. Who knows. I feel I shouldn't have to make another colleague feel unwelcome or personally attacked, or to be made to feel uncomfortable myself.

There are two strands to all this FuckYeah. People are trying to accommodate transwomen who are harmless, usually attracted to men, and not predatory. Which has gone along way to informing legislation.

The flip of the coin is transwomen who remain attracted to women and are misogynistic and nasty.

It sounds like your experience is probably of the former. But the rules also allow in the latter.

I find the whole thing infuriating because we should not have to provide evidence of a predatory motivation in order to maintain our private spaces. We shouldn't have to keep on, showing ever more distressing and upsetting examples of the reason why we have sex segregation.

All gender toilets
All gender toilets
All gender toilets