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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

All gender toilets

159 replies

MissBax · 12/05/2017 18:43

Bit of a lurker on the fem chat usually but just wondered people's opinions on this.
At my university today I noticed they'd changed the women's toilets on one floor to "all gender" toilets. At first I thought ah ok that's not a big deal, there must be someone in the uni who is trans and that's why they've done it. But then when I came out of the toilets I noticed that the men's toilet and disabled toilet hadn't been changed. I can't understand the rationale of changing only the women's toilets? Or am I being overly sensitive? I'm not sure how I feel about it...

OP posts:
Datun · 12/05/2017 21:18

I will cheerfully support any campaign for extra, gender neutral facilities but it's up to trans people to start that campaign.

I have never seen, read or heard of a transwoman being the slightest bit interested in campaigning for their own facilities. It completely defeats the object of validation and/or facilitating their autogynephilia.

Datun · 12/05/2017 21:19

MissBax

Email. Definitely. Leave a paper trail.

BigDeskBob · 12/05/2017 21:25

"they could have asked for some feedback from the women who have been imposed upon first?"

What would they do if women said no?

MissBax · 12/05/2017 21:27

BigDeskBob Well then they'd have to look at alternative methods surely. If in order to accomodate one group of people, you're alienating another, then it's pretty pointless?

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:31

All gender? Where do I wee if I'm agender then?

SylviaPoe · 12/05/2017 21:32

Demand your own toilets, Jellyfrizz.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:32

It's on the wiki and we have a flag: gender.wikia.com/wiki/Agender

MissBax · 12/05/2017 21:35

jellyfrizz 😂 I thought it was a weird way to phrase it too.

OP posts:
Datun · 12/05/2017 21:35

MissBax

Say in your email that the toilets with the dual facilities should be the ones that are gender neutral. As they can accommodate both sexes.

If they decide that for some reason men being embarrassed is worse because they have their dicks out, you could ask why men's embarrassment trumps that of women's?

I bet you the people dreaming this up will be men.

Be explicit. Make them face up to facts. Talk about women needing the toilet to throw up in if they are pregnant (not a man's problem), talk about miscarriages and the significant number that take place on a toilet (not a man's problem).
Talk about heavy periods and getting blood on your hands (not a man's problem).

Women want their own toilets because of privacy and dignity. But, but no-one gives a shit about that, so there are significant biological reasons as well.

You can bet your bloody life, if they make the men's toilets gender neutral, a mere whiff of embarrassment and self-consciousness will have the men complaining in droves.

Because they just don't bloody get it.

Make them.

Datun · 12/05/2017 21:36

Sorry for rant. I'm furious.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:37

But Sylvia as an agender female I would have nowhere to go to the toilet at MissBax's university. As a woman I would have used the women's loos but now there's nowhere for me.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:38

I imagine most feminists will identify as agender - no?

SylviaPoe · 12/05/2017 21:40

Exactly, there is nowhere for you to go Jelly!

You could perhaps demand that the male toilets are designated for all genders and the female toilets are designated for people without a gender.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/05/2017 21:41

You need to complain about sex discrimination. You should tell them you need single sex toilets for personal reasons, which will worry them far more than if you specify mooncup washing or pregnant vomiting, because anything specific to women is easy to dismiss.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:52

You could perhaps demand that the male toilets are designated for all genders and the female toilets are designated for people without a gender.

Or just male and female would be fine by me.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:59

Seriously though talk to them in their own terms and tell them you are an agender female and now have nowhere to go to the toilet.

Do you have a gender identity? Do you believe in sex role stereotypes?

No? Well then you are agender and cannot use the all gender toilets. You are not male or disabled so can't use those. There is nowhere for you to go to the toilet as an agender female (aka feminist).

BigDeskBob · 12/05/2017 22:00

They will probably say the cost of removing urinals and installing sanitary bins prohibits changing the men's loo's to 'all genders'. That, and men would hate queueing.

Laurapalmer90 · 12/05/2017 22:01

*This has been discussed with regard to a public toilet, where also only the women's toilet was changed. Many people here are very angry about it.

It is really revealing, isn't it?

Women's right to privacy is under attack.

It is not about trans people, it is about giving males access to women's spaces. If it were about trans people, they'd change the men's toilet, too.

That said, if you see a man in there, do ask him to leave and complain if he doesn't.
After all, the sign says "all genders", not "all sexes". Gender is a social construct. And there's no problem with female people who identify as trans, non-binary or dinosaur using the women's toilets.*

This. I'm really, really angry about this too.

Ask them why they are leaving the men's toilets as they are. Why don't they convert half of the space in each men's bathroom to accommodate MTT? Or why don't they have a third bathroom? Why are they forcing this on women who need privacy and dignity? Also, the safety issue is important. If biological males are allowed into female spaces there IS a risk that females could be attacked especially as it is known that some men identify as women to gain access to women's spaces and abuse and hurt them.

Many MTT are scared to use the men's toilets because of the threat of male violence against them, usually from strangers. Women in abusive relationships are scared of their partner hitting or raping them. Heterosexual men have been attacked in toilets. It’s pretty rare but it does happen. I always wonder why then, is it not the same when a female says that she has the SAME fear of male bodied violence from a male who is a complete stranger to her in a female space?

Finally, definitely email. It's always a good idea to have a paper trail of these kinds of things. You could also print it out and deliver it to them.

PencilsInSpace · 12/05/2017 22:08

Email definitely. I like Datun's and Countess's suggestions. Sex discrimination is still a thing recognised in law, it's up to us to use that law while we still can.

Also, depending on the mix of students, you might want to bring up the issue of muslim women being expected to share a female space with male people and the implications of that. The same groups that are hot on transphobia are also hot on Islamophobia IME.

Ask them whether they have done an impact assessment for this policy. They won't have, it'll just have seemed like an inclusive progressive thing to do and they will not have looked at how it affects any other group except trans. For all their shouting, trans activists are among the least intersectional-minded group out there. It is always, always about them, and fuck everybody else.

Be careful - you might face flack if you make your objections public. Up to you how much risk you want to take. If you feel you can risk doing stuff in person then please go for it, but be prepared.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 22:08

You could perhaps demand that the male toilets are designated for all genders and the female toilets are designated for people without a gender.

Yeah they'd probably do an agender and allgender wouldn't they? Still, as it stands there is nowhere for an agender female to wee. Which is illegal or against human rights or literal violence or something.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 22:10

Ask them whether they have done an impact assessment for this policy. They won't have, it'll just have seemed like an inclusive progressive thing to do and they will not have looked at how it affects any other group except trans. For all their shouting, trans activists are among the least intersectional-minded group out there. It is always, always about them, and fuck everybody else.

Yes! What about us agender females?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/05/2017 22:22

'Ask them whether they have done an impact assessment for this policy.'

Definitely.
I personally wouldn't muddy the waters by talking about being agender, which will just confuse them - I would use the broken record technique and repeat that I need a single sex toilet and ask why they have removed this provision.

Datun · 12/05/2017 22:25

Sex segregation:

Muslim women - because they're women - ie biology
Periods and blood - biology
Miscarriage - biology
Morning sickness - biology
Pregnancy tests - biology
Predators - biology

Sex discrimination - biology

SylviaPoe · 13/05/2017 01:49

I was joking about agender loos, just to be clear.

Terfing · 13/05/2017 02:16

This made me laugh earlier...

All gender toilets