Do you notice male privilege more as you get older?

[Destinysdaughter]

I do! Partly because I know what it is and when I was younger I didn't know it existed. Examples are male friends my own age (50) looking for relationships with much younger women. Men in very good careers, not having had to take career breaks for children, not being judged on their looks or weight, being able to delay having children until they were 'ready', i.e.,40 plus. No negative connotations attached to being a single older male, not being called 'spinsters' or 'crazy cat lady' etc

Anyone else?

Yes, I just looked round my IT office and saw all these men, and thought I must need to go to the optician or something

There's a "better go to Specsavers" ad there somewhere.

On another thread I have just learned about "Jeffrey Gate". If that is not about misogny I don't know what is.

I'm another one who thought that battle had been fought and won when I was in my twenties (I still recall - and cringe - the time I spoiled my ballot paper for the Women's Officer student union elections because I didn't think that such a post was necessary.....). And now I realise both how far we have to go.

User - do you know what happens when women move into occupations traditionally seen as male?

TBF to the thoughtless comments from people who don't understand that maternity leave isn't a period of time off to write a book, no-one really knows what it's like to have a baby until they have one. I remember saying to colleagues before I went on maternity leave that I didn't know what I was going to do with my time, and getting knowing smiles back and an assurance that I would have plenty to keep me busy

Women don't have to take career breaks for children either. Or indeed have them at all.

1. Women who have children do need to have some time off work- or are you suggesting that they should give birth during their lunch break and get back to work?
2. Neither women or men have to have children but if a couple decide to have a child the woman has to carry it, give birth etc

No women don't have to have career breaks, work part time or stop doing overtime every evening. But unless the couple can afford a nanny, someone has to take kids to childcare, look after them when ill etc and if the father can't / won't do this then guess who has no choice?

I think the thing about mat leave is that its actually quite short in the grand scheme of things. I took 6 months (which was all that was on offer then).
Its what happens after mat leave that male privilege kicks in. When a woman has a child, the expectation is still that she will be the main carer, and her life will change, massively.
When a man has a child the expectation is that his wife will keep things ticking over and nothing will really change for him.
I had a situation at work once where one of the senior men's wife was ill and he brought his baby to work. He had a vey important meeting, so he handed the baby (with a full nappy)to one of the cooing ladies in the admin office and off he went.
Cue baby crying and the "girls" in the office fussing around him, while I sat and seethed. Impossible to ignore a crying baby, but infuriating that the women were letting themselves be used as makeshift nannies.
I had to leave and work from home as I couldn't do my work under those circumstances.
Later, I confronted the man about it, and he said something like " well I couldn't cancel the meeting!" This kind of thing happens all the time. Men bring their children into work during school holidays. They say "oh, well, my wife had something on, and they're off school.
I want to say " I'm a single parent. Have you ever seen me bring my child here? No! Because I organise childcare!"

I'm in my mid-40s and am ashamed to say I have only started understanding the point of feminism in the past 10 years but as I get older it is as though a veil has been lifted from my eyes and I can see the world as it really is, no longer through a romantic, idealised filter. As a young woman, I actually aspired to a 1950s ideal. I couldn't wait to get married, give up work, raise children and be a perfect little housewife. I even insisted on saying "obey" in my wedding vows and for that alone I'd like to give my younger self my first ever MN .

Thankfully my husband was a wonderful man who would never have abused that particular promise. We were parted by his death in our early 30s, so it is not even the case that my change in world view has been triggered by his treatment of me or a relationship breakdown, it is just something that has happened organically as I have grown older.

Now I have swung to completely the other end of the spectrum! I see inequality, female denigration and male privilege everywhere and in every area of life and as a mother of 4 young daughters the thought of the world they are inheriting absolutely sickens me and I have no idea what I can do about it or even how to prepare them for it. Is it even possible? My 14 year old daughter is already showing signs of what has been discussed above - not being able to "see" what I can "see", even when it is pointed out to her. She truly believes that she has exactly the same opportunities and chance of career success and progression as the boys and that feminism is redundant and irrelevant to her generation.

GuinefortGrey, I'm sorry about your husband.

GuinefortGrey

I'm sorry about your husband, too.

And I agree, it feels like a huge responsibility, and a frustrating one at that, that youngsters don't see the need for feminism.

In terms of being blind, I wonder if it has anything to do with romance and attraction?

The 'alpha male' has long been held up as an ideal for women. But that same alpha male would be a crap feminist.

I'm sure feminists would choose someone who is enlightened as a life partner, but in terms of raw attraction, to we apply the same criteria?

God yes, maybe as I'm in my 40s so maybe just more aware but also I am far more likely to challenge it. Especially socially. What I also find strange is the many women I know (who have usually sacrificed their career for the children) still have to ask their husbands for money. We have a joint account and each take the same 'pocket money' each month. My husband earns loads more than me but only because I went part time to look after the kids.

Mid forties here too and over about the last ten years I have seen the light.

I did a temporary job before Christmas and it was going amazingly well........ until an attractive blonde in her twenties turned up and all attention diverted to her. It suddenly dawned on me that I had always relied on my looks at work. I now see that all those 'nice' older bosses were really just sniffing around. Quite a few had a good go too.

An alpha male may be attractive when you are younger (e.g. powerful, rich, etc.) but he is no good if you want him to deal with a crying baby or share domestic tasks.

I'm moving in a new career direction where the majority of staff and managers are women. I'm hoping I will get on based on my ability not my chest size.

I think that's a good point, Datun. If you look at the kind of films some women and girls go nuts over, it'll contain some manly (abusive, controlling, 'protective') man. Fifty shades of grey or Twilight. I saw another poster on here describing how she used to watch porn as 'fetishising her oppression' and it really struck a chord. I wonder if even my simple preference for my partner to be taller than me is down to that.
Plus in films, which were were I got my ideas from as a young teenager, everything is heightened. There's usually danger and so having an alpha male who can fight off the bad guys is useful. In real life, where you're unlikely to be set upon in every other scene, it's more fitting to just have someone who sees you as his friend and equal, rather than being stalkerish and overprotective. But of course real life isn't nearly as exciting as film-life.

I have always noticed about male privilege and self entitlement although I feel more able to call people out on it as I get older.

At 18 I was treated badly by a male boss in an all male company when I told him I was pregnant. He actually took me to one side when no one was there and went through how much time and money he'd lost training me then started making me do menial tasks like cleaning (nothing to do with my job role) until I quit. I just cried and went home and never perished a complaint.

Now at 31, I have just secured 55k in research funding (hard to do in the NHS) and one of my male supervisors (who actually told me I'd never get the money and didn't help at all with the grant proposal) asked me to send out the research protocol to my supervisory team. I did this and his reply was 'please can you change the title in your calendar invite for our next meeting to whatdid, as I have too many PhD students to keep track of' Clearly he's sees me more as a secretary rather than someone he respects as there was no mention of the protocol that he's supposed to comment on.

The difference now is that I'm building evidence against this guy to get him off my supervisory team and I'm smart enough now to get a paper trail.

It's a sad state of affairs that nothing has changed over the years

The difference now is that I'm building evidence against this guy to get him off my supervisory team and I'm smart enough now to get a paper trail
I find that the male sense of entitlement often leads them to over play their hands and underestimate the abilities of women
So easy then to just shoot him down at your leisure

There is a sea change as one gets older. When I was a very young woman men seemed interested in what i had to say, they appeared to take me seriously. However once I became a mother I started to see that this was nonsense. Men had paid me attention because they liked the way I looked, not because they were remotely interested in my opinions. They were patronising me, but I had taken them at face value.
I have daughters, and that has also affected how I feel. I see how unfair the world is, how skewed in favour of males, and it makes me extremely angry. I see the massive rise in pornography since I was a teenager, the rise in plastic surgery. The crushing of women's spaces, the hatred of lesbians. Donald effing Trump boasting about grabbing women's genitals and still getting elected. The rape/murder threats women get on Twitter if they protest against males in female only spaces. I see it all and feel

Anyone heard of Black Tape Project?

www.news.com.au/lifestyle/beauty/face-body/bizarre-new-fashion-trend-where-women-are-wearing-nothing-but-duct-tape/news-story/7d4597e7a19e36cda9e54c9da53a0423

Can we imagine a reversal of roles in these photos, with men 'dressed' how the women are, and a woman in the place of the man?

I've been discussed with a group of aspiring women (public sector) the sorts of things they are regularly experiencing from male colleagues and the organisation. Examples along the lines of:

"Senior male x is well known for giving the males preferential treatment, all the admin work seems to get shunted onto the females, there is a pattern, we can see it, but we don't know what to do about it.. the senior male's behaviour has already been complained about and nothing has changed. The trouble is, all the more junior males around look to this guy as a role model and mimic his behaviour"

"one of the mid-ranking males in the same area has a habit of mansplaining at length, all of us have experienced this at one time or another. we know what our jobs are, it's so patronising."

"there is a clear social mechanism by which a number of males have been recruited, and through which they have access to the power structure, and receive rewards and are celebrated. there is no such mechanism for females, no equivalent funding."

Men aren't even trying to hide this stuff, it seems to be perfectly acceptable. HR seem too scared to do anything about it, as it goes up to the highest level.

*discussing

re the other thread about film actors. its that men are supposed to be looking better with age (well, in film industry they often do), but women can't get away without some kind of plastic surgery if they want to stay in business.

An alpha male may be attractive when you are younger (e.g. powerful, rich, etc.)

Whilst this may be the case with some, I don't know any girls of my age who find this attractive or would stipulate this kind of trait in a partner. All want to be successful ourselves. In fact I was stunned when I read a thread on a different section on here started by someone suggesting encouraging daughters to "marry well" with "well" meaning "wealthy", even more so when a reasonable number agreed with it.

I can guarantee I don't know a single girl who'd even consider income/future income if they want a male partner. If anything I and friends of mine favour the complete opposite kind of boy to what's regarded as an "alpha male" (the like of which I personally find incredibly unattractive).

There's usually danger and so having an alpha male who can fight off the bad guys is useful

I actually think think this is quite relevant to "real life" and it's linked to male privilege. Because of the constant threat of male violence to us, many of us are made to feel a boy/man who can "look after" us is desirable. So they can seem more attractive a partner (or even just come across as thoughtful) because of their ability to "protect" us from male violence. They're in this way doubly privileged as they tend not to understand the feeling of being at such risk and can then impress by reducing it for us.

This can also manifest itself in just walking a woman home. A man could seem (and indeed be) kind and thoughtful for doing this, but he's only able to do so due to the threat she faces.

It's a protection racket, men cause the problem (of violence and the threat of) and offer the solution to it, the alpha male type reminds us constantly that men are dangerous, and so we need a dangerous men to protect us from the dangerous men

For these men women are pieces in the game, the game being a competition for power and status over other men

I have noticed as I get older that young,slim,pretty women are often treated better by men at work, eg deference paid in meetings. I think I benefited from this in the past but didn't fully realise at the time. Older, successful female colleagues have occasionally also shared their experience and it opened my eyes.

So ageism seems to come into play. Perhaps a little bit similar to black women facing both sexism and racism.

I don't think it's that the men want to pursue a sexual relationship with the attractive women, more that they like/value those women more and have positive bias towards them.

It massages their egos....the thought that they could pull these young attractive women
young women are more likely to be naive, take things at face value so easier to game/manipulate
Even if he can't pull this particular woman she makes good target practice, he can Polish his techniques, find out what works and improve his chances of scoring with other women

Because of the constant threat of male violence to us, many of us are made to feel a boy/man who can "look after" us is desirable. So they can seem more attractive a partner (or even just come across as thoughtful) because of their ability to "protect" us from male violence. They're in this way doubly privileged as they tend not to understand the feeling of being at such risk and can then impress by reducing it for us.

Hmm. I don't know about this, because, really, young men are at great threat of male violence also.
My dp is probably not an Alpha, but he's fairly tough and I would say is is thoughtful rather than macho.
As a young man he suffered horrific violence at the hands of other men, (in the form of street violence in the UK) so I'm not sure I would call that a privileged position.

I don't really want to get into an argument about this again but it's just not comparable to the street harassment, threat of sexual assault and worse which we face simply for being girls, from our early teens, and then said women. It isn't comparable to having a grown man in a suit comment on you on a quiet street in your school uniform. To being "catcalled" by two men across the road on a dark road who label you a "miserable bitch" for not responding and you don't know if they'll follow you. Of the ever present threat of sexual violence and beyond purely for your sex.

Not having to live with that? Yes, that's privileged. Thankfully my dad and brothers get this - even though my brothers are both younger - as well as boys I'm friends with.