Do you notice male privilege more as you get older?

[Destinysdaughter]

I do! Partly because I know what it is and when I was younger I didn't know it existed. Examples are male friends my own age (50) looking for relationships with much younger women. Men in very good careers, not having had to take career breaks for children, not being judged on their looks or weight, being able to delay having children until they were 'ready', i.e.,40 plus. No negative connotations attached to being a single older male, not being called 'spinsters' or 'crazy cat lady' etc

Anyone else?

Yup! Also, when looking for work, I am always told about roles ( often by other mothers) which are part time and low paid as it's assumed I want that, whereas actually now I'm at the stage when I'm thinking about pushing forward and getting more ambitious ( and the fact that my current pension is worth fuck all!)
I have worked mostly pt for 11 years and while I felt that it was important that my dc had me available, I still feel guilty for wanting to be a mother and be fulfilled in my job. And properly rewarded. The only man I know who is a proper lp ( like me) has worked ft since his dc was a baby and was seen as doing his best. He told me he would have gone mental being at home and went to work for a break! ( fair enough, but he feels no guilt because society doesn't expect him to ) .

Am I the only one who is now finding that younger (and many older) men want me to 'mother' them? By this I mean;

• sacrifice my needs to theirs
• look after them in the workplace
• support them emotionally
• feed their egos

I've seen younger men demand and be given resources by older women (recently, one gave up a coveted office to a junior because 'he needed it'). I've been in the position where I have articulated my needs as a middle-aged woman at the mid-point of my career to have a younger and much junior man flop it out and point out that 'I have it so much better than him'. I watch so many middle-aged women coo over younger men and treat them like their sons (listening to their problems, even bringing them in food, etc.). I've never been remotely interested in male approval, but I've gone from being the unattractive younger one not worth fucking to the older non-maternal one with dry teats (in my mind). Not that I really give a shit, but it does rather mark me out as the workplace evil woman (think of the witch in Hansel and Gretel) and this is not good for getting me what I want with managers who also like the older women on staff to be unproblematic, nice and 'motherly' (note inverted commas).

Spartacus I have not noticed that as I tend to work alone. But it sounds extremely frustrating. The motivation for young men to extract what advantage they can is clear. But why do women behave like that? Do you think it's conditioning or wanting to feel needed?

Yes definitely. I also see the younger, childless women who think feminism is no longer needed.

Cheminotte - to my eternal shame I remember feeling like that when younger. My career was forging along at roughly the same rate as other males of the same age, so it never occurred to me that there was any discrimination.

Although shamefully I remember being on the interview panel where we were interviewing a male to come at the same grade as me, his salary requirements came out and he was going to be offered £10k more than me. I remember feeling outraged by this, but then I never challenged it as I was reasonably well paid and didn't want to make waves I suppose, but really it was absolutely disgusting situation to be in.

It was only when I had DS and wham I was in the middle of a storm where I was desperately trying to do what I did before on less hours, with responsibility for all childcare arrangements and most of the domestic stuff, then it all fell to pieces and it's taken many years to glue it back together again.

his salary requirements came out and he was going to be offered £10k more than me. I remember feeling outraged by this, but then I never challenged it as I was reasonably well paid and didn't want to make waves

When I challenged pay when I was in my 20s, I was told, "Discussing pay can be a sack able offence." And I couldn't afford to lose my job, so...

the younger, childless women who think feminism is no longer needed

not just the younger ones. saw a charming FB post yesterday by a 40-something childless woman who I considered to be reasonably intelligent, supporting an article that indicated that as some women get maternity leave which is 'space and time our of work to reflect on their lives', childless woman should be given the same. As if maternity leave is just that, 'time off'.. 'free time'..

The head of equality and diversity at a particular UK institution confessed to me that before the birth of his first child, he wanted to split maternity/paternity leave, against the wishes of his wife. In the end they took 6 months each.. he said he had thought he would get 6 months 'time out' and had intended to write a book or some such. Then realised what it is actually like. Oddly, he has 'let' his wife have the full 12 months and is working through the first year of his second child's life.

Then realised what it is actually like. Oddly, he has 'let' his wife have the full 12 months and is working through the first year of his second child's life
Quelle surprise 🤔
Just duck out and let the women do all the personal sacrificing while he gets the gold career stars

It's having kids which has been the real eye opener for me.

Fathers are praised for 'helping' with housework, night wakings and childcare. Mothers are just expected to get on with it.

Fathers get more respect at work and opportunities for promotion as 'they have a family to support'. Mothers are seen as a liability and told it's normal to 'coast' for a few years after having children and are expected to be the default parent, dropping everything when the kids are sick and need time off nursery/school.

Maybe that should have been younger and / or childless. My current organisation is pretty good for senior women but the majority are childless or have only one child.

I've just turned 30 so quite young but definitely notice a lot more male privilege, funnily enough more than I did when I was younger, probably because I didn't see it as male privilege, if that makes sense?

Also, I've become a lot more of a radfem in my views in the last few years and this may also be playing a role.

These boards especially the feminist and relationships sections have really opened my eyes too. I feel a lot of sadness reading those threads.

There have been younger guys at work 'mansplaining' to me when I actually know my job really well and have been there longer than they have! Then there's stuff like the wolf-whistling, catcalling and stares. It seems to happen a lot when I wear dresses so that puts me off dresses quite a bit.

I've been sexually assaulted twice (not rape) and now I look back I realise that both times were because of male privilege, because guys believed they were somehow entitled to me simply because I sat next to them on the bus or walked past them on my way to the loos.

Also, agreed with the wifework. My ex-boyfriend could do all the household stuff, but he was really lazy and just left it all to me. He would also get angry at me for cleaning calling me names and saying I was "distracting him from his game". . At the time I thought it was normal.

At the time I thought it was normal.

That is half the problem right there.

I'm older than you laura, and the things that I thought I were normal in my 20s and 30s would make your hair curl.

All the historical abuse cases that have been in the media over the last few years have highlighted exactly what people thought was normal 20-30 years ago.

In retrospect, it still troubles me that the things I found difficult, or repugnant, I still thought of as, if not normal, at least 'usual'. Expected. Par for the course. No use complaining about. And not because the complaint wouldn't get anywhere, but because you would be looked at in complete bewilderment.

Women pushed for laws. And laws are in place. Technically we have no discrimination. But in real life we do. Because women are still oppressed.

I think when I was younger I found it easier to believe that examples of male privilege were actually something else- for example:

• men taking up more room (in transport etc)= men are bigger and need more space
• men being listened to more in meetings=more experienced and interesting people
• men expecting me to move out of the way for them=me showing respect for older people
• men making personal comments to me/cat calling etc= just the way things are and maybe I brought it on myself somehow
• men expecting me to 'look after' them= they like me and want me to feel needed
• few women with children in senior roles at work= many women have different priorities once they have children, plus they have taken time off work so have less experience than men of the same age
• lots of other sexist crap= just the way things are and NAMALT

As I've got older and had children of my own I feel more confident in my own opinions and it's like I have had my eyes opened and can't believe that I was taken in by all this. The fact that, despite seeing differences based on gender I was looking for an alternative reason says a lot as well I think.

Absolutely. I am far more aware now of the inherent misogyny in our culture, and more aware too of just how many men are absolute shits to women. The whole rise of transactivism has been a shock. That such a small group of males can shout so loudly and get heard so quickly, while two women a week are killed by men in the UK, makes me . I have daughters, which has fuelled the rage further. I have a husband who is brilliant, but other than him, I like men a lot less, the older I get- and I'm someone who has always had male friends.

I am not sure the examples you've given are male privilege.

Examples are male friends my own age (50) looking for relationships with much younger women

They are perfectly entitled to. IF they succeed, that means the younger women agreed to it! Women can do the same if they want. Look at the French president.

Men in very good careers, not having had to take career breaks for children

Women don't have to take career breaks for children either. Or indeed have them at all.

not being judged on their looks or weight

Men get judged too - balding, overweight, facial hair, not dressing correctly. Type of car they drive, etc.

being able to delay having children until they were 'ready', i.e.,40 plus

That's biology, not privilege! Male sperm DOES deteriorate, though they do have longer than women as a rule to procreate. You can hardly blame men for the menopause!

No negative connotations attached to being a single older male, not being called 'spinsters' or 'crazy cat lady' etc

I've heard eternal bachelors called all sorts "probably gay", "weirdo", "bet he's a strange one". Anyone who acts outside the norm gets it.

I'm also struck by how many traditionally 'male' professions are so much better paid than female ones. Why are certain jobs considered more 'important' in society?

No such thing as "male" and "female" professions any more. So if a female wants to be an engineer with the pay-packet that goes with it, go for it! Certain jobs have always been considered more "important" in society and a lot of "lowlier" jobs were indeed done by men. Think of the tradesmen, sewage worker, dustmen etc. Most of these jobs are done by men. I don't see many women fighting for the right to do those!

I am an older female with no children and never done the traditional female anything. I neither know nor care if I am seen as a "crazy old cat lady". Perhaps I'm too feminist to notice schoolyard name-calling or to be affected by it.

user94567433

Do you think there is such a concept as female oppression?

If you do, why do you think it exists?

If you don't, then fine.

Yes females have the choice not to have children, however if all of us made this choice then the world population would cease to exist pretty quickly.

It seems a little unfair then to label it as a lifestyle choice, and not count the discrimination that women face when they take maternity leave or try to balance work and home life. As per some of the posters above men are lauded for the usually rare occasions when they are actively involved in childcare, whereas women are expected to do both work and home jobs perfectly without talking about either.

Oh and talking about lower paid jobs - in our council they went through an exercise to change pay grades a couple of years ago as all the lower banded traditionally male roles i.e. refuse collector were on higher salaries than the equivalent "female" roles i.e. school dinner person, even though the level of responsibilities and activities were the same.

Society as a whole benefits from the production of the new generation of people but women bear most of the costs
Children are not pets or hobbies that women have merely to indulge or amuse themselves with....they are vital for the continuation of the species!

Yes females have the choice not to have children, however if all of us made this choice then the world population would cease to exist pretty quickly

Personally I don't think that's a bad thing. More to the point, this (which I was going to ignore)

^Men in very good careers, not having had to take career breaks for children

Women don't have to take career breaks for children either. Or indeed have them at all^

Is a pretty stupid argument that ignores the fundamental issue that some / most women and men choose to have children and yet the act of doing so tends to disadvantage women more than men.

And even if you don't have children, there's still a strong chance of women being discriminated against, or at least suffering unconscious bias against then, just because they might have children. Plenty of people avoid hiring women of childbearing age, regardless of the law. Men do not suffer from this, despite the fact they are likely to become parents too - that is male privilege.

If a man in his early 20s went for an interview, would it ever occur to the panel to think hmm I wonder happens when he has children?

Fact that we have had to make it illegal to even ask, should tell you everything.

"Men get judged too - balding, overweight, facial hair, not dressing correctly. Type of car they drive, etc"

It's not even nearly to the same extent. Go on the Daily Mail sidebar of shame and see how many articles there are on women's bodies compared to men's. Watch some music videos and see how the women are portrayed compared to the men. Watch any programme with a male and female presenter and check out the age difference (Bruce Forsyth and Tess Daly is the one springing to mind). See how many tv programmes there are aimed at telling men how they should dress for their body compared to the ones for women. Look at how many adverts there are selling anti-aging creams, hair products, make up and cream to reduce cellulite (all under the guise of empowerment of course) to women compared to the ads for men. Look at which sex is predominantly getting cosmetic surgery because their looks are so important that they must endure pain and spend thousands on looking a certain way. Look at which sex tends to suffer from eating disorders.

Same rookie.

I had to leave a job as although I loved it and got on very well there, I couldn't survive on the wage.

I had to have a chat with my very friendly boss basically saying if there was no chance of a rise in the future, I'd reluctantly have to seek other opportunities in order to support myself.

He said no.

Then hired a man to do half my job on 10K more.

Fucking livid.

User informs us there are no longer male/female dominated occupations? Wow! Progress must've been made since I last posted

User informs us there are no longer male/female dominated occupations? Wow! Progress must've been made since I last posted

Yes, I just looked round my IT office and saw all these men, and thought I must need to go to the optician or something.