Men bashing

[PirateQueenie]

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

It isn't possible for that system to exist IMO.

We ought to have a campaign called "Straight White Men's Lives Matter"

They are, of course currently the most oppressed group in society............

I am lucky that I have dw.

You just reduced your wife's achievements,qualities and personality to your ability to have sex with her. Cool

Through compromise or fight.

I want to achieve it through men taking responsibility and modifying their attitudes and behaviour. It's not rocket science and the oppression of women is not our problem to solve. I want to see men getting on with it.

I think that men will listen, newdaddie. They just won't listen to women.

On a general level, anyway.

"Too many man just don't care.

This is why just telling them to stop won't work"

That's what's so dispiriting. Men generally don't care. If they did, there would be no need for feminism!

We ought to have a campaign called "Straight White Men's Lives Matter"
I can just sense all the blokes and handmaidens feeling overjoyed at the prospect....
But you know that will never catch on, there will still be narky detractors until you call it "Straight White Men's Lives Matter More Than Anyone Elses "

That's what's so dispiriting. Men generally don't care. If they did, there would be no need for feminism!

Yep.

But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

Less you remove the word commercial, that doesn't exist.

It's sot of highlighted when an obviously well intentioned feminist ally like newdaddie still feels the need to defend prostitution and pornography and do passive aggressive little strike-outs.

I'm sorry, newdaddie, but it's just so depressing

I think most men have yet to grasp the concept that sex isn't something they have a right to.

Men generally don't care. If they did, there would be no need for feminism!

I agree, but I think men*, when they have it explained, do actually start to care. Not all mind - not the ones who are heavily invested in sexism or so deeply misogynistic that that they immediately pooh pooh anything a woman says, but generally they do care. It is just a battle to get through their thorny defenses....

ha ha - I just realised men are like sleeping beauty - deep inside a castle surrounded by thorns... just waiting for a feminist to take her machete and cut through all that 'NAMALT' and 'women do it too' to awaken him to his full human conscience, with a big slap of reality - rather than a kiss

Pretty time consuming though. each individual bloke is haaaaaard work - feminist time can be better spent else where.

*women too - but that is a bit different - like Bertrand Russell's - (the philosopher, not you the mumsnetter) 'knowledge by acquaintance' or 'knowledge by description'.

But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.

There is, it's called Tinder, Affair sites, and most online dating sites. Heterosexual women can get all the free sex they want. It's the men who have to do the hard work, which is why they prefer to pay prostitutes, easy and simple. The problem is that most women go on online dating to find a partner/soulmate; most don't want a soulless sexual encounter.

"I agree, but I think men*, when they have it explained, do actually start to care. Not all mind - not the ones who are heavily invested in sexism or so deeply misogynistic that that they immediately pooh pooh anything a woman says, but generally they do care. It is just a battle to get through their thorny defenses.... "

How many times do they need it explained to them? Can they not read? Observe? Listen? Reason? Empathize?

You just reduced your wife's achievements,qualities and personality to your ability to have sex with her. Cool

If you ever met dw you would know that it is practically impossible to diminish the woman even after almost 20 years.

I feel we are physically and emotionally matched but in today's society commitment is rare so yes a little bit of luck is in there. There have been stronger, more intelligent, richer, more beautiful men available but she is committed to me. If that isn't good fortune than I don't know what counts as lucky.

How many times do they need it explained to them? Can they not read? Observe? Listen? Reason? Empathize?

Indeed.
And in many cases, I think the only reason they do stick around to listen is because they are hoping to shag the feminist who is explaining it to them...

And in many cases, I think the only reason they do stick around to listen is because they are hoping to shag the feminist who is explaining it to them...

Is that a gold star feminist ally?

"I have only ever shagged feminists."

Newdaddie you might be right,but in your post that was all about sex,the need for sex,the "lack" of sex availability, you just had to mention how lucky you are you have your dw...for sex.

passive aggressive little strike-outs

That is the language adopted on MN. I use it more passively than aggressively in the sense that it i use it for something that should be mentioned but perhaps only trivially.

I'm a newdaddie but an even newer MNer. I'll stop using the strickthrough and save it for when I actually want to be an asshole.

newdaddie
Google 'effects of legalization on prostitution' (note the word 'negative' is not included) brings up scholarly articles.
Prostitution increases illegal trafficking, the abuse of children within the industry, harm to women and PTSD.

The Nordic model keep prostitution illegal and gives the women more safety. Sexual services men ask dfor are less sadistic and not so extreme. The Nordic model provides support for women wanting to leave prostitution.

Prostitutes have high rates of PTSD. If you dont know why then go read Punternet. The comments by men who use prostitutes should make you rage.
Some choice examples here;
the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

"I'll stop using the strickthrough and save it for when I actually want to be an asshole."

I am the queen of the PA strike out myself!

But it is interesting , don't you think, that you felt it was necessary to do the "but women do this too". Had you thought about why? It's something that often riles feminists because we feel that men are expecting us to look after their interests at a time when 2 women a week(ish) are being killed by their domestic partner, and it hardly seems to make a ripple on the surface of society.....

most women go on online dating to find a partner/soulmate; most don't want a soulless sexual encounter.

But there are a lot of other men that are up for it - so maybe if it is soulless sex men want to feed their 'addiction' - why not go to one of the huge number of parks and cemeteries that are cruising sites and shag other men for free.

In other words - it is not really possible for men to have lots of soulless sex with women, because our biology has an aversion to it. Of course there are lots of women that shag around, but all the ones I know have done it very much on their own terms apart from the umpteen horror stories they admit in their reflective moments.

Men simply can't have sex with women on his own terms, without the whole machinery of prostitution, which requires massive social inequality, CSA, cultural misogyny, (ie Patriarchy) etc in order to prime and process women to be used in it.

GuardianLions

In other words - it is not really possible for men to have lots of soulless sex with women, because our biology has an aversion to it.

I've never seen it expressed that way. What is the biological aversion?

Is it because before contraception, every time we had sex we would get pregnant?

And is that the age long answer of why women can orgasm without sex? So we get to enjoy it without getting knocked up?

DJBaggySmalls

Wholistically legalising commercial sex is good imo. Unless you think sex itself is intrinsically bad and immoral?

Society telling a soldier that killing is moral while the deep inside they feel it is intrinsically immoral contributes to their PTSD.

Society saying sex is immoral contributes to prostitutes PTSD. I strongly believe that if the societal shame of sex is removed there would be far less prostitute PTSD.

They both similarly carry the burden of shame guilt and loathing in addition to the acute trauma.

The whole shady underground nature of the sex industry coupled with society's view of sex workers and 'female purity' contributes to the suffering of sex workers.

I read the punternet examples they are horrific. Especially though the lens of present morality. But if ordering oral sex was as acceptable as ordering a pinot noir I suspect a lot of punternet comments would seem far more benign.