Men bashing

[PirateQueenie]

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

I don't come here to educate myself, did that years ago

Do you really think this? Do you think you have nothing to learn from here? I struggle with this as a mindset - I hope to keep learning new stuff until I peg it. Can you really decide that you just know enough and stop?

"Rad fem is, I think, by definition a socialist movement (from my understanding anyway), so as I'm not a socialist, I'm out just on those grounds alone. "
Well, I'd kind of disagree with that -- I'd see socialism etc as just as much a creation of patriarchal structures as other political movements.

As regards a quick skim of the argument on here, a lot of it seems to reduce to we're not being nice and friendly enough or offering enough buns to newcomers, and if we gilded the message a little, we'd have more friends and win more influence.

As opposed to being a mean ole bunch of harridans (Yeah US!)

As regards the 'at the root' definition of radical feminism, I caught a short piece in Scientific American t'other day. Isotopic analysis of human remains from China shows that from being equal between the sexes in the Neoliothic, there is a shift, so women ended up eating millet and wheat, whilst male skeletons show they ate millet and meat. Women's bones also began showing cribra orbitalia, a type of osteoporosis and an indicator of childhood malnutrition.

Which to me shows that the idea that women were less (hence should only be allowed to eat lower quality food, or food seen as of less worth, and would be the first to go hungry when times were hard) was already entrenched before men had the means or the opportunity to actually enforce this dietary apartheid. Which continued up until the present day, when the men at my family Sunday dinner table got the first choice of the roast, and the women and girls got what was left..............

Can you really decide that you just know enough and stop?

I don't think you can otherwise you'll quickly get out of touch. So much has changed with the rise of the internet, social media, mainstreaming porn and sexting, grooming and how sexism and patriarchy now operate. It was a different world only 10 years ago.

MotherPeresA wrote - "if one is to have a movement dedicated to rights, it seems rather contrary to create spaces that possess all the same negative characteristics one is supposedly looking to change."

Here is a list of some examples of the negative characteristics of worldwide patriarchy that are not shared by feminists and which feminists want to stop:

• killing of unwanted female babies
• mutilating girls' genitals
• trafficking of women and girls for prostitution
• allowing a man to rape his wife with impunity
• forcing women made pregnant through rape to continue with life-threatening pregnancy
• smearing a woman's reputation by bringing up her sexual history in a rape trial
• terminating the employment of a woman because she is pregnant
• paying female employees less than male employees for the same work
• executing married women, who are victims of rape, because they are deemed to have committed adultery.

I'm not saying that the ends of feminism justify any means, but I think it is important to point out that misogynists and anti-feminists are in a different league to feminists in a comparison of negative characteristics.

The thing I find most depressing is that there are so many feminist goals that could be achieved now this very minute if only men would agree. There are some things that are mor structural,but lots aren-t they are just behaviour all changes that could happen at once.

vesuvia do you think that's what peres meant? That being exacting/uncompromising/unapologetic feminists (that not everyone likes to knock about with when they feel like chillin') is equivalent to being something like serial rapists in a culture of inpunity?

I thought that might have been what they meant but it just seems a bit too crazy.

I think I might have also misunderstood what radical feminism actually contains

Every day a school day. I'm off to read a bit more about it and decide if it does actually fit my beliefs. As I'm not one of these terrible academic feminists, I've never spent too much time agonising over how my beliefs fit within the feminist canon - I do the activism and take up arms for the issues that I feel strongly about. It's very possible I'm more radical than I thought, but if that is true, then I can hardly have been pushing a party line I didn't even know I followed! And I suspect I am not alone there. So more evidence that there is no clique...

Asking for equal rights means you have accepted the power imbalance. any women start of as liberal feminists, asking for equal rights, then think 'fuck that shit' for one reason or another and are pushed/awakened to be radical.

Radical means 'root'. Name the problem, get to the root of the problem. Society is broken and not fit for purpose.

^ Many. not 'any'.

- killing of unwanted female babies
- mutilating girls' genitals
- trafficking of women and girls for prostitution
- allowing a man to rape his wife with impunity
- forcing women made pregnant through rape to continue with life-threatening pregnancy
- smearing a woman's reputation by bringing up her sexual history in a rape trial
- terminating the employment of a woman because she is pregnant
- paying female employees less than male employees for the same work
- executing married women, who are victims of rape, because they are deemed to have committed adultery.

I would have thought that the vast majority of men in this country would have no objection to any of that list.

Then why does a lot of it still happen in this country, cad?

Hom - a variety of reasons, you choose one (to begin with) and we can discuss (if you want)....although it's just turned 5.00 and I need to be making tracks.

cadnowyllt
I would have thought that the vast majority of men in this country would have no objection to any of that list.

I think you missed vesuvia 's point.

She was responding to the accusation that feminists in FWR are 'just as bad as patriarchy'.

Which is clearly, when you look at vesuvia's list, bollocks.

Here's my thoughts on why men in the UK (who are predominantly white, certainly those with the power to change stuff promptly) don't fight as hard to end the issues in vesuvia's list:

• killing of unwanted female babies

Denial it happens in the UK. It's an "over there", foreign problem. Even if they secretly cheer at having a son to carry on the family name and take to the football.

• mutilating girls' genitals

Another "foreign" problem. And not understanding the different between FGM and male circumcision, partly because not many men could label the component parts of a vulva

• trafficking of women and girls for prostitution

Something that happens to other people's daughters/ sisters. Terrible, of course, but no connection to the strip joint down the road where we went for Dave's stag do

• allowing a man to rape his wife with impunity

Prove it was rape

• forcing women made pregnant through rape to continue with life-threatening pregnancy

Men are generally more in favour of abortion than women, so this is an anomaly in the list. Except for the wider issue with rape

• smearing a woman's reputation by bringing up her sexual history in a rape trial

^Because it's terrifying to think that a ONS might turn around and "cry rape". Because the accused looks like a nice, normal guy, bloke you could have a pint and a laugh with"

• terminating the employment of a woman because she is pregnant

We have laws against that, so obviously that battle is won. If it happens, she can go to a tribunal and let them sort it out

• paying female employees less than male employees for the same work

^Most men aren't in positions where they get to set rates of pay"

• executing married women, who are victims of rape, because they are deemed to have committed adultery

More "foreign stuff"

**NB - not my personal views!!

And can I add to that the list of things men could agree to do now that would make a huge difference?
Stop using prostitutes
Stop using pornography
Stop using sexist language
Call out other men on their sexist language/attitudes
Stop hitting women
Take an equal part in domestic/family life
Stop supporting sexist music/films/online behaviour
Inform themselves about consent and only ever have sex with women who are demonstrating enthusiastic consent
Take responsibility for their own fertility.
Speak out about non family friendly workplace practices.
Model what it is to be a good man to their children.

They could also stop saying they are women.

Stop using prostitutes
Stop using pornography
No, prohibition doesn't work and ironically prohibition of sex, drugs etc has patriarchal religious origin. Liberalisation, regulation and education is the way forward imo.

Stop using sexist language
Definitely, this is especially important to prevent normalising sexist attitudes for future generations even if our generation think it's 'harmless' or 'banter'

Call out other men on their sexist language/attitudes
Yes women too
Stop hitting women
Yes women shouldn't hit men either

Take an equal part in domestic/family life
Yes, as long as equal means fairly an realistically shared not some arbitrary 50-50 guideline. I've effectively have 2 jobs while I do the majority of our renovation projects. Dw chooses to do the majority of 'domestic' work. If anyone objects they are welcome to help me free up some of my time (for domestic chores) by helping me crawl through dried up bird/rodent poo on their bellys in old lofts to put spot lights in.

Stop supporting sexist music/films/online behaviour
Yes definitely for online behaviour, no perhaps for art, which imitates life and artists should be given freedom of expression. Kevin Gates (a rapper) - Posed to be in love is good example. This song is about domestic violence; some view it as vile glorification, some view it as brilliant exposé. I lean towards the latter, black women are incredibly stoic and often their experience of DV is not heard.

Inform themselves about consent and only ever have sex with women who are demonstrating enthusiastic consent.
100% agree, I also take responsibility for teaching my god sons, nephews and if I have a son this too.

Take responsibility for their own fertility.
Hmm, the flip side to this is erosion of trust between sexual partners. I have a peter pan uncle who always uses condoms but also thinks every woman is a nasty skank after his money.

Speak out about non family friendly workplace practices.
Yes, for big AND small companies, there's a myth that maternity hurts small business. SMP is recoverable at 103%. The 3% might not cover recruitment costs but there is merit to the argument that a diversified workforce with better work-life balance will be more productive.

Model what it is to be a good man to their children.
Definitely

daddie

It would also be nice if women could speak about things which happen to them without men piping up "but we experience this too!"

As someone who worked in DV services, I can count the number of genuine male victims on one hand. And that wasn't because they weren't reporting it either.

newdaddie
'No, prohibition doesn't work and ironically prohibition of sex, drugs etc has patriarchal religious origin. Liberalisation, regulation and education is the way forward imo. '

I disagree. Pornography and prostitution are both ways in which women are abused. There is a power dynamic which is not equal here. Liberalisation just means that even more women will be abused. It normalises and legitimises the use of women. Education doesn't work. Too many man just don't care.

Anyway, the point was that men should just refrain from using women for pornography and prostitution. They are not entitled to do this. It damages women and they should just stop.

Here's my thoughts on why men in the UK (who are predominantly white, certainly those with the power to change stuff promptly) don't fight as hard to end the issues in vesuvia's list

Us black men need to do more too Olenna

Anyone who's involved with Mothers Against Violence would see that black women carry the greater burden of the toxic environment that see their sons needlessly murdering each other and their daughters suffering.

I didn't mention prohibition. I just said men should stop using prostitution and pornography. Why should we need to ban it?

It would also be nice if women could speak about things which happen to them without men piping up "but we experience this too!"

It would be nice homity but humans are intrinsically selfish and what I've noticed is that men especially men's rights activists ignore the fact that 9999 women who are abused is far more of a pressing concern than the 1 man who is abused. But to overlook that one man creates powerful opposition from a selfish, wrong but yet still powerful class (men)

This is why I give my sincerest possible smile of agreement to the all lives matter brigade while proudly fighting for black lives matter

It depends how you want to achieve liberation. Through compromise or fight.

Too many man just don't care.

This is why just telling them to stop won't work sticklebrix

Sex is also addictive which just telling men (or women) to just stop won't work.

A wholistic (and possibly global) decriminalisation and removal of the taboo of sex for love and/or money will erode the male dominated, abusiveoften criminal S tructures which are presently the only way for people to pay for sex.

I am lucky that I have dw. If I wasn't with dw I still wouldn't use prostitutes because I don't want to be funding an abusive system. But if there was a fair and decent commercial system for sex with feee and consenting adults I would definitely use it.