Cailyn Jenner in woman's hour now!

[Badweekjustgotworse]

Just that really!

LuckyButton

The minute women are not considered weak, second class, inferior, is when all gender expression will be accepted as neutral.

I do wonder if there are ways in which this is already happening (apart from this new backlash).

But it's only going one way. Women wearing trousers, suits, flats etc. Buzz cuts.

Although, there is a trend for slightly feminising men now. Full body hair removal? But then that is offset by the foot long hipster beard.

Maybe MTT have always been like this, and its only because of what they write online we know their true feelings?

Yes I think it's partly this. Also because they were few and far between and weren't perceived as any kind of threat, the women in their social circle were more accommodating. Perhaps there were few people who were exposed to the reactions.

The pooling of people and information exposes all this.

It would help you if you realised that no one is being critical of you personally, Hermit, well, except for the comment about your cousin which was blindingly unaware.

What women here object to are issues we see all around us where transactivists are damaging the rights of women and girls. Do you know that most MTTs are sexually attracted to women, that they keep their dicks, and that many are fetishists? And these guys want to share our showers? Damn right women get angry. But we know not all MTTs are like that. If none of this applies to you, why take it personally?

And what do you think about Caitlyn Jenner? That's what this thread is about. My own view is that Caitlyn is no more a woman than Rachel Dolezal is black. Rachel, a white woman who claimed to be African American, was all over the news at the same time Caitlyn "came out". I have never yet seen any justification for the position that blackface is terrible, but womanface is totally acceptable.

I think it would be a major headfuck to be transed as a kid.
I feel unsure whether hermit is dysphoric or just went through a long phase as a kid insisting they were a girl - (the sort of shit kids do) and the well-meaning parents started down this whole trans journey instead of letting hermit either grow out of it or be an effeminate or even cross-dressing boy.
And as you say hermit we don't really know anything about you - whether you are dysphoric, AGP, a TRA, or a kid wronged by misguided parents.

"none of the things yous are saying about trans people applies to me or most of the trans people i know."

Oh, okay. Sorry "our" (cis?) problems bothered you. Not your problem, right? Never mind the fact I was in a traumatic, borderline abusive relationship with a guy with severe AGP/other humiliation based fetishes, a few years ago, and worry where all this new legislation being proposed, (and lesbians being labelled bigots for not wanting to go near "anyones" penis etc), is going. Genuinely worried.

"I don't see why someone would make a permanent decision to transition if it was all about a sexual fetish".

Many are just part timers though - and never fully transition. The India Willoughby article had many part timers insisting they needed the right to use women's loos even if they mostly lived and dressed as male for their everday lives. Their only "transition" was to dress as women perhaps for a night out or at the weekend. Absolutely no thought given to how this affects women.

I also don't think Hermit realises that many if us were totally trans supportive for years but have had our eyes opened by the recent huge explosion of trans rights and trans awareness in the media. Reading online trans forums, following and talking to transfolk online has made many former unquestioning trans allies start to reevaluate our views.

Hemit - no kne here means you any harm but you ask us to put ourselves in your shoes - i rarely see transwomen trying to understand our views, how the current transactivism is negatively affecting women and girls. Most only are interested in trans rights and even crow when they feel they have won against concerns women raise. As in the recent ttranswomen/girl sporting successes.

It doesn't surprise me at all that men might transition purely to gratify a fetish. Men are constantly going to enormous lengths for sexual reasons, from the respected family man who runs off with a teenager to the paedophiles who train for many years and at great cost to enter professions that will give them access to children.

It's one of the things that only men do. Very few women do massively destructive - or self destructive - things for sexual kicks.

When I say trans, though, I'm referring to the ones that I believe are taking hormones and are looking into some sort of surgery, whether that's breasts and/or final surgery.

I know of one gay guy who dresses up like a woman (not drag) on nights out every so often. He seems to really enjoy the attention, but I don't believe he fully ever wants to transition.

It's one of the things that only men do. Very few women do massively destructive - or self destructive - things for sexual kicks.

This is one of the reasons why the sexual motivation is either overlooked or not truly appreciated, by woman.

Women find it inconceivable quite how far men are prepared to go for sexual fulfilment.

I was reading about genital surgery almost being an ultimate expression of masochism. Although I must admit, even I found that hard to swallow.

But surgery is very definitely often a sex goal for someone with AGP. I'm just not sure about the masochism bit. On the other hand, masochism generally doesn't make much sense to me.

"When I say trans, though, I'm referring to the ones that I believe are taking hormones and are looking into some sort of surgery, whether that's breasts and/or final surgery."

But that's not what being transgender means anymore. There are no clear definitions on anything. Man, woman, female, male, transgender, lesbian, gay, straight, biological sex. These words are losing their meaning as we understand them.

I'm just not sure about the masochism bit. On the other hand, masochism generally doesn't make much sense to me.

If you look at Mapplethorp''s photos or look into male genital modification in S&M fetishism your stomach would churn!

GuardianLions

There's a lot I don't click on! Too squeamish.

I don't doubt that it goes on, I just don't really understand it.

There's a lot I don't click on!
Like me too - but some things I've seen long ago - when I was none the wiser - I still can't unsee!

Datun, for an astonishing insight into how one MTT feels about his neovagina, read what Juno has to say.

Juno has ended up with a result that sounds utterly appalling but, having had sexual dreams about having a vagina since his teens, he's happy.

God Prawn the way Juno keeps repeating the mantra of "I love my vagina, I really love my vagina, which is lucky because it’s one of one." - is that an ironic poetic device or is the author unaware that they sound like they are trying to convince themselves?

I think he has to convince himself or he'd crack up, poor misguided bloke, Lions. It sounds unspeakably unpleasant.

All that anguish, physical and mental, and he never once got to use it for sex - which was why he had the surgery in the first place. Now, of course, it's healed so much that penetration is impossible. It's so sad.

Yes I suppose the severity and seriousness of this brutal surgery. Imagine if he stops saying " I love my vagina, I really love my vagina, which is lucky because it’s one of one." every five minutes he might think "O Noooooo! What the FUCK have I done!?!!!"

What a devastating thought. He says he is unable to orgasm amongst everything else and the SRS clinic sounds like something out of a horror film.

Juno's asks 'where is the lubrication coming from?'

It is most likely caused by using some of the colon in the creation of the neovagina. How come I know this stuff but Juno doesn't!

BetsyM00

I know. I find it unutterably sad. Genuinely.

And I'm fucking furious that the medical profession cannot find a better way of dealing with this.

prawn

Did you read the account of the MP, Sarah Brown (auntie Sarah)?

It was a very scathing and self annihilating imo.

And I'm fucking furious that the medical profession cannot find a better way of dealing with this.
And it's so much at odds with the rest of the medical profession. A close relative of mine had a life threatening accident recently and I was told gravely of the condition and asked for consent to perform dangerous/life-changing surgical intervention if it worsened. They were fine - but the surgeon made sure I wasn't under any illusions about the risks. Why is it that SRS surgeons are able to be so cavalier about explaining the risks and the stark details to allow patients to be truly informed and perhaps change their minds. What the fuck is going on?

From the things I read, they have to sign to say they understand the high risk of infection and unreliable results. Its the perfect storm of men wanting to be the perfect women and surgeons playing god. I'm sure the results will get better, but you've got to feel for the people who are being practised on.

I suspect they get given a 15 page form to sign. But the compulsion is so strong that the implications, although considered, are dismissed.

There are lots of forums about how to get around the gate keeping.

But I agree. Personally I do see how surgery can alleviate symptoms. I think there are many people who are quite happy afterwards. I just think it shouldn't be the answer. Because of the lifelong reliance on medication and because if you do detransition it must be horrendous.

People say it's like getting anorexics liposuction. And although I don't think it's exactly the same, there has to be a better way.

A few months ago I read about the part of the brain that when stimulated alleviated the symptoms of anorexia. There seemed to be some kind of correlation between that and gender dysphoria.

And this is where the money should be going.