Cailyn Jenner in woman's hour now!

[Badweekjustgotworse]

Just that really!

Gaslighting.

Hermit - if you truly think that transactivists are advocating terrible things in the name of transgender people, why don't you stand up and be counted? Women's rights are being eroded by aggressive TAs and AGPs and you are just keeping your head down.

Stand beside up and stand up and be counted.

And if you believe there are transphobic comments on this thread, please report them to MNHQ and they'll delete them

Datun, I guess it's like anything. A gay friend told me that he realised he was gay after Duncan from Blue came out. Famous people come out as gay or trans, and then people identify with that.

I will go back to a point I've made before. As far as children are concerned, it's really important that they get the support that they need, but that they don't rush to any conclusions. I really do believe that trans people should wait until they're 16-18.

And utterly predictable. One cannot, just can not have a sensible exchange.

Hermit you agreed gender stereotyping was wrong, and said you and younger trans people don't do it.

I think 'what is the point of transitioning then, if you aren't enacting a feminine stereotype at all' is a completely valid question and don't see why it's unreasonable to ask.

Or how it could make you feel bad, as you've said you don't adhere to those stereotypes?

Can you see why, when people make points and reasonable questions are asked about them and the answer is always

'You bigots, how dare you question me, it made me feelz bad' it makes it all look like a fairytale that doesn't stand up to a hint of logic?

really? try putting yourself in my shoes and imagine people are telling you what YOU are and twisting everything you say.

am i supposed to feel like an accepted member of society after this?

phyllis

There are lots of studies into teenage behaviour. One of the reasons why teenagers are so bloody minded about what they want and won't listen is because their brains have not fully developed.

Their empathy is still in its infancy.

By empathy I mean being able to put themselves in someone else's position. Including their future selves.

Everyone knows exactly what 'bloody teenagers' means. And everyone knows it stops applying in their mid 20s.

To expect a teenager to make a decision that could severely affect the rest of their lives when they are 16, or even 18 is optimistic at best and extremely irresponsible at worst.

If it wasn't for the overpowering need to 'pass' it would never be an issue. Demolish gender and you demolish the need to pass.

Reinforce gender, and you reinforce the need to pass. Which is what is happening now.

Hermit, if I was trans, I would feel terrible reading all of this stuff. And I actually felt terrible reading a lot of this as a friends of trans people.

This is a thread about trans in a Feminist sub-forum. It's from their perspective and it's different from yours. I believe the majority of posters here just want to have a discussion.

What does answering an illogical point of view have to do with being an accepted member of society.

If you truly want to understand why women have a problem with this just try to think about the answer to the question.

You and we have agreed that stereotypes, in this instance of how a woman is supposed to behave and what is 'feminine' is damaging and untrue.

That's how a woman dresses, acts, behaves, talks, looks is nothing to do with her being a woman or not.

You said you and the younger trans people don't do this.

I was curious and wanted to know, it'll you didn't enact untrue feminine stereotypes what the point of transitioning is?

I previously believe it wa to 'appear' to be one of the opposite sex by acting in a stereotypical caracature of them.

If it isn't I am very happy to be educated by your view.

if your aim here was to make me feel worthless

We all agree that transpeople are as worthy of dignity and protection as anyone else. Nobody is aiming to make you feel worthless.

But I can see how this discussion might be uncomfortable if you weren't aware of how trans validation has an impact on women's rights. You sound young, vulnerable and say that you have presented as female since childhood. It would be understandable if this hadn't occurred to you before.

If you feel that you have been attacked, please report it. MN is very hot on deleting transphobic comments. Rightly so.

am i supposed to feel like an accepted member of society after this?

What exactly do you mean by that? What does acceptance mean for you personally? Specifically. Bullet points.

Hermit - I spent 5 mins on Reddit's ask_transgender forum just now (looking for something I cant now find)

One thread cheered me up no end: a TW who transitioned before pursuing higher studies who is being encouraged to apply for a women's only STEM position by someone who doesn't know she is trans. She has decided not to apply for it and take away the opportunity from a woman, as she acknowledges that she is not the intended beneficiary of affirmative action such as this. Other posters agree, that they don't need this but women really do and it is respectful to stand aside.

Fabulous, I thought, these lot really get it, no problems at all with them.

Then on another thread I saw this gem:

I went out for the first time Saturday night to a private party, dressed just the way I've always wanted, makeup doing what it's supposed to but subtle. I had all week to get my nerve up, and I was nervous as hell.

It was exhilarating. I've never gotten so much attention, so many compliments, to everyone there I was a woman (and one of the hottest, apparently!). In fact, some of the attention found me in the awkward position that so many girls find themselves in when the guys are drinking. Thankfully this group is pretty safe, so I had a fairly comfortable initiation into that particular rite.

As far as being upset, I was already kind of upset before. Like I said, I'd had the entire week to get ready, and completely unconscioiusly, I'd avoided touching myself the entire week, and I didn't even think about it. I was definitely turned on, I can't quite put my finger into just how that was, but... I'm still pretty aroused (mentally?), but I have no interest in touching myself. I don't know. I really need to see a therapist. I'm good at figuring things out but this weaves into every aspect of my life, I don't think I can untangle it myself. And I'm tired of having the question hang in the background. And the thought of telling my father scares the bejeezus out of me.

Sorry if TMI.

If that's not an AGP who doesn't have the slightest comprehension of women's lived experience, I don't know what is. And I will fight to ensure that they do not have access to women's spaces, as they have no right at all to be in there.

Just rtft. Hermit when you say you were living 'as a girl' since childhood. I find that alarming and saddening. Why did your parents/carers not allow you to simply be a gender non-conforming boy? Why did they encourage you to believe there is something wrong with you being male with a male body? Why did they encourage you to invest in this life of make-believe?
I know I didn't realise my family were a right bunch of gits until I was in my late 20s.
My feeling is that this thread is very hurtful for you to read, because it can only make you either think critically about what your parents/carer's beliefs and motivations are - which is a deep and treacherous rabbit-hole to sink down, or to close your ears and feel upset that you can't convince all the mums on mumsnet that you were raised by sound people and that all is well in the world they created for you. Which isn't going to happen.
It must be terrifying.

*try putting yourself in my shoes and imagine people are telling you what YOU are and twisting everything you say.

am i supposed to feel like an accepted member of society after this?*

Hermit you do know that women routinely feel like this, don't you?

Aye.

Don't feel like a respected and valued member of society for being who you are and doing what you want?

Welcome to the sisterhood.

I'm guessing hermit is gender dysphoric and doesn't mean any harm to women.

And that's yet another part of the issue. It's crucial to be allowed to present in a feminine way. Crucial to mental health and happiness.

The smallest deviation from that line is devastating. No one, least of all women, wants to devastate anyone.

So you are back to either accommodating someone else at the expense of yourself or taking a hard line and upsetting people.

And I don't see any men having this conundrum.

OlennasWimple

The first example of a MTT in your post is brilliant.

They not only decided to ignore their male privilege, they also ignored their need for validation. A double whammy of altruism.

Datun I'd rather that young boys could feel that they can like (insert whatever feminine aspects of their personality they want to enact here) and do so without being thought of as less of man.

And that a young girl can wear whatever clothes she wants, have her hair however she wants without having to think she must be a 'boy' to be accepted for doing so.

I think that would help the latest 'trend' following trans.

I'm not counting the people who have a genuine mental health condition, dysmorphia, who need to continue to get help and acceptance. And I think they are being damaged as much as the testy of us by this wave of TRA's who want to silence truth.

LuckyButton

I agree. But I think we are a long way from the wholesale social acceptance of a man merely presenting as feminine, not being considered other or inferior.

That's one reason why a lot of transwomen (non AGP) simply won't listen to that point of view. Why can't you just be a feminine man?

They know there are too many people, particularly potential partners, who wouldn't find it acceptable.

yous are honestly crazy like seriously you all just keep assuming things about me you's are just jumping to conclusions and now bringing my parents in to it? my parents did what they thought was best they didn't encourage or discourage me my sister and brother where all raised to be able to freely express our selfs which i admire them for doing as we lived on a Liverpool council estate and it was unheard of at the time

the reason its so upsetting is it's not nice you've all made it clear you don't like trans people and are comparing me to other trans people

i'm being judged for the actions of other trans people i don't speak for all trans people i can't give answers for other trans peoples actions.

several times in this thread i've been stereotyped and had things amused about me i'm sure yous would all feel a bit annoyed if you had people who don't know you telling you what you are based on a few people they've seen online or in the media.

You're being stereotyped? How can you reconcile complaining about that when your entire 'identity' revolves around the stereotyping of women as a whole?

HermitTheFrog

I think almost everyone has said they understand you're not representative of the people we are talking about.

We are also just continuing the discussion sparked by Caitlin Jenner, that isn't aimed towards you at all.

Datun sadly true yes.

I would rather us be heading in that direction though, currently it seems we are doing the opposite.

Hermit people are just trying to have a reasonable discussion.

No one has asked you to speak for all trans. I asked you to clarify your viewpoint as it made no sense to me.

Shrieking 'judging, bigots, upset' on mn doesn't really work as a valid argument or view point.

Again I note your use of the word 'stereotyping' and call it out as extremely ironic, given the discussion point you're completely dodging.

I'm guessing hermit is gender dysphoric and doesn't mean any harm to women.

I agree. It's a very sad situation for people in hermit's position who have transed as children. Current transactivism means that they are lumped in with late-transitioning AGP transwomen. Very unfair IMO.

That's what is so utterly frustrating with the new trans ideology. MTT have existed for years, not making any demands on women. But that's not good enough anymore, they need validation, more precisely, validation from women.

Maybe MTT have always been like this, and its only because of what they write online we know their true feelings?