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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Gender Critical Manifesto

251 replies

venusinscorpio · 19/04/2017 20:21

Let's put a list of salient points together about what the issues are with the trans agenda. It will be a useful resource.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 21/04/2017 18:38

I totally agree re contacting the education minister. That CPS pack in particular is disgraceful.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 21/04/2017 18:41

And that crossdressing is considered to be "transgender" along with a variety of other heterosexual expressions of "gender identity"

OP posts:
RogueBiscuit · 21/04/2017 19:12

Some of what is being proposed flies in the face of advice given by agency's like the Nspcc and other child protection advice.

^What is child sexual abuse?
Child sexual abuse includes touching and non-touching activity. Some examples of touching activity include:

touching a child's genitals or private parts for sexual pleasure
making a child touch someone else's genitals, play sexual games or have sex putting objects or body parts (like fingers, tongue or penis) inside the vagina, in the mouth or in the anus of a child for sexual pleasure
Some examples of non-touching activity include:

showing pornography to a child
deliberately exposing an adult's genitals to a child
photographing a child in sexual poses
encouraging a child to watch or hear sexual acts
inappropriately watching a child undress or use the bathroom^

On one hand we are told to be wary of men showing interest in our children, in particular attempting to be alone with them. But on the other hand we are being told we are bigots if we object to a strange man seeing our child in a state of undress.

Trans having these rights mean children lose their rights and parents lose the right to protect them.We should contact these child protection agency's and raise this issue, including the information about fetishes and voyeurism.

GoldStars3 · 21/04/2017 19:21

In terms of organising all of the points that need to be made, sections can be helpful. Off the top of my head, there's

  1. Addressing the straw men and lies - using direct quotes from TAs which completely misrepresent the GC position might be useful)
- we're not saying that trans people "don't exist" - people exist, and their reproductive sex determines whether they are male or female.
  • we're not saying people of a certain biological sex should dress or behave in a certain way. People should present to the world however they feel comfortable.
  • we're not saying that a transwoman or a transman isn't human, and entitled to human rights and protection from violence. We're saying a transwoman isn't a woman and a transman isn't a man. We're all human.
  • The whole 'misgendering is literal violence thing'... ugh.
  1. The problems with the rhetoric / discourse of gender identity politics
  • 'Cis' designates women as 'identifying with' their oppression
  • 'Gender' is how feminists have articulated the system of oppression that is based on sexism. By reframing 'gender' as an inherent and intrinsic identity, and by confusing / conflating sex and gender, the trans movement undermines the ability of women to talk about and resist the system that oppresses us.
  • If 'woman' becomes a meaningless term based on self-identification, the ability of women to organise in solidarity to address misogyny and sexism is seriously impaired, maybe fatally.
  • What's progressive about saying someone is 'behaving like a woman'? 'thinking like a woman'? 'living as a woman'?
  • 'pregnant persons', 'uterus havers', 'chest feeding', 'front hole', 'menstruators'... erasing women from discourse on uniquely female experiences, and shaming women for talking about their vaginas or periods or breastfeeding as things connected to their womanhood, is regressive and anti-feminist.
  • educating girls to disregard their own boundaries in favour of validating the feelings of a male classmate who wants to use their locker room, branding them as bigots if they express discomfort with changing in front of a male or being exposed to male nudity, is RAPE CULTURE.
  • accepting that boys playing with dolls or girls not being interested in dresses are early indications of 'trans-ness', is sexist and regressive thinking.
  • the idea of 'female brains' being inherently different to 'male brains' is without scientific evidence, but not without a long history of being used to justify denying the women full citizenship and freedom. 'Female brains' were used as justification for refusing women the vote, education, career paths and political representation. Do we really want to go back there?
3 - The legal implications of self-identification and the replacing of 'sex' with 'gender' as a protected characteristic
  • Goodbye to women's sports. in the US, goodbye to Title IX meaning anything. Better comment on how wonderful how many women's records will be broken! And get ready to celebrate what a heroic achievement for diversity it is that the poor disadvantaged transwoman lifted the heaviest weight or ran the fastest sprint! Don't think it's fabulous? Not happy to have come second and missed that scholarship or the place on the Olympic team? Bigot!
  • Goodbye to women's colleges and universities!
  • Goodbye to accurate health statistics - hooray for the drops in the number of 'women' getting cervical cancer for example, but shame about the resulting loss of funding and the increase of 'women' with prostate problems.
  • Goodbye to accurate crime statistics - what problem of male violence? Don't you know the number of rapes carried out by women is increasing year on year...?
  • 'Gender balance' in hiring panels and boards of directors and juries and admissions committees and political positions could now mean five men and five transwomen.
  • Of course there was no sexism in the decision not to hire the more qualified applicant who was 28 and looked like she might inconvenience the company with maternity leave in the next few years. How could it be sexism, when we hired Tiffany formerly Timothy instead? Are you saying she's not just as much a woman? Bigot!
  • Of course it's not sexism that you were prevented from pumping breastmilk chesmilk while at your work premises. How could it be sexist? Some men chestfeed too! Are you saying breastfeeding is only for ciswomen? Bigot!

And on and on and on and fucking on. Anyway, I think it might be a good idea to separate the points into sections, either the three above or others that people think capture the issues more accurately.

GoldStars3 · 21/04/2017 19:21

Jesus, sorry! Wall of text not very helpful. Blush

Elanetical · 21/04/2017 19:34

I like the sections.

I'd add a section about personal implications, with the kind of thing that causes peak trans moments for different kinds of people, more the emotional side.

I think it would also help to have a "current state" section for those who think this is all in the future. Males now in women's prisons, males now allowed to compete as women in the Olympics, a bill before parliament to make it illegal to discriminate against gender, etc.

As a format for the TL;DR version of this manifesto, I like the attached about gay marriage as an example format.

The Gender Critical Manifesto
BMacklin · 21/04/2017 19:35

That bit about not choosing women for jobs as they may go on maternity leave (but a transwoman wouldn't) never occurred to me.

I seem to be saying that a lot on these threads. My head hurts from where I slap it going "of course! That too!" Wink

The more I read and think about it the more things start to unravel. Toilets and who uses which ones truly are the tip of a very ugly iceberg.

PencilsInSpace · 21/04/2017 20:23

I've been looking at wiki sites. There aren't nearly as many as there used to be but PBWorks looks like it will do what we want for free and looks easy to use. We can have up to 15 people editing and can set it to private or public. Has anybody else used it?

I'm more than happy to set one up tomorrow, there is so much knowledge on these threads but it's getting tricky to find things.

Thelilywhite · 21/04/2017 21:22

Brilliant posts everyone. It makes me proud to be a feminist! Just wanted to add my (very inarticulate) voice to agree especially about the toilet thing This week at work we got a questionnaire saying that gender neutral toilets were being considered and to get our views. I answered with strong objections and reasons why. Couldnt have done that without these threads. Was also horrified most colleagues 'didnt see the problem' A wiki is a great idea.

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2017 00:53

sticklebrix "Why are women being asked to 'expand the bandwidth' of what it means to be a women? Surely it would be more appropriate for men to budge up and make room for feminine men within their own ranks."

Excellent point.

Faceicle · 22/04/2017 12:47

Will it also help to collate a list of the "reasonable sounding" arguments from the people who aren't getting why this is a problem? I'm referencing dh here and according to him I am "on the wrong side of history", and need to "look at the people I am aligning with" - by which he means Trump et al and those who seek to limit women's rights. He's onto something here, though it's not what he thinks it is. We're in fact being squeezed from both sides. I'm a feminist, and therefore care that the results of austerity (as one example) on women specifically are disproportionate and dreadful. I in no way share the motivation of those who bleat "but think of the children" in an attempt to oppress lesbians and gay men, or restrict access to fit for purpose sex education in schools. I think that dh and other good people are just naively following a narrative of "progress" that states trans people were once dreadfully treated and that therefore anyone opposing the current mindset of complety accepting trans logic is a reactionary bigot. A bigly bigot, probably.

venusinscorpio · 22/04/2017 14:24

Pencils - that sounds great.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 22/04/2017 17:36

Right, I've made the beginnings of a wiki here.

All I've done so far is take text from this thread (hope that's OK, if anybody wants anything removed let me know) and start organising it into pages and sections. I haven't really edited it and I haven't added any new content but I am beginning to see where the gaps are. The major work will be hammering it down to the essential points and making sure each is well backed up by evidence and is irrefutable Smile

It would be good to get more editors on board, is anybody up for it? This is intended as a collaborative space where we can hammer out ideas and wording. I would be more than happy for others to jump in and change things, add things, edit things down. It will, by its nature, be messy at least for a while, rather than a smart finished website. We also have the option of making it private if we want.

It just asks for a name and email to sign up. If anybody would like to help, PM me your email and I'll send you an invitation (for security I will delete the PMs as soon as you're successfully signed up, I understand people might have concerns about another Jeffrey-style hacking)

BMacklin · 22/04/2017 18:56

I'll have a look tonight and see if I think I can help.

sticklebrix · 22/04/2017 20:46

Thank you Pencils, that looks fab!

BeyondUser24601 · 22/04/2017 21:17

Pencils, that is brilliant!!

CocoaLeaves · 22/04/2017 22:32

Off topic, but the point about using sex when sex is meant brought this to mind. I was recently sent a survey on discrimination against women in my profession to complete by email.

It asked if my gender was male, female or other (with a space to clarify).

I wrote other - my sex is female, gender is a social construct

Then the next page thanked me for my time and closed the survey. My gender is nothing, because I don't endorse the concept, and it promotes discrimination- but that means I could not answer the survey.

BetsyM00 · 22/04/2017 23:57

Looks great Pencils.

About Bruce Jenner under the sports section - he is still listed as Bruce on the official records www.olympic.org/athletics/decathlon-men.

Desiderio · 23/04/2017 02:02

Re the wrong side of history - history does not stand still so history may currently judge van Gogh as a genius unlike in his time but who's to say in a hundred years time what people will think. The point out is that the consensus of any one time is no arbiter of truth. For a long while history judged that the sun went round the earth. It didn't make it so. For 20 years lobotomies were thought wonderful before ethical concerns became apparent. In short it's better to look at the facts rather than acquiesce to ill informed popular public opinion.

As to being in the same side as trump, Christians or the right wing i say this. I agree with Hitler on some things. Like i also think Berlin is in Germany. Should i then automatically disagree with something just because other things they say i think are wrong? That's just guilt by association. I also agree with Christians that surrogacy is problematic and that we should help the homeless. It doesn't make me de facto homophobic. Again let's look at the facts on a particular issue. Also it's quite possible to be right for the wrong reasons, for someone to hit on the right answer to a maths problem even though their workings were incorrect. The reasons i disagree with trans dogma is sometimes for entirely different reasons to a right winger. Just as some people are anti the EU on democratic grounds not because they have a problem with immigrants. The reasoning can be as important to the validity of a view as the result.

RintelsPoint · 23/04/2017 14:17

IllBeBack This completely ignores the plight of women and girls across the world who do not have access to sex-segregated toilets, or sometimes any toilet, and suffer as a result. It ignores the shame around menstruation.

This is another thing that doesn't make sense. TAs and allies love to shut down discussion by claiming it's all white, middle class feminism. And yet what is more irrelevant to those in the world struggling to survive than this nebulous concept of "gender identity"?

TitaniasCloset · 24/04/2017 00:56

My ex and dd father got it after I showed him Women decide for yourselves. He was absolutely horrified and like most people had no idea what was going on.

I had no idea about Jazz and his/her penis issue. How are the parents dealing with it? After all they caused the problem by allowing the hormone blockers.

PencilsInSpace · 24/04/2017 19:37

Anybody else fancy helping with editing the wiki? I'm happy to plod on and keep adding and refining stuff. If nothing else it will (eventually) be a handy resource for us to find relevant links without having to trawl back through threads but it will take a lot of people hours to pull it all together.

I've started adding stuff from the gender critical reference thread - I'm up to the second post Grin

BMacklin · 24/04/2017 20:25

I promise in will I just having a teething baby at the mo. Tomorrow when he naps ill have a go. Don't worry I'm sure others will be along to help soon.

BeyondUser24601 · 24/04/2017 20:25

I've got 3pcs coursework to do over the next few weeks that should take up all of my spare time, but once they're done i can certainly help out :)

Thelilywhite · 24/04/2017 20:51

pencils I will have a go. Currently in a quiet period at work so finges crossed it continues.Not sure how to do it though shall i pm you?

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