Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

focus on the independent escorts and just deconstruct this. Why do these women work as prostitutes? Because some men are prepared to pay a high amount of money to use another persons body for orgasm.

unless you remove the economic imperative for women to resort to prostitution in the first place then it will continue to exist. wrong. You could also remove the demand by encouraging men to stop seeing provision of their orgasm as an entitlement that must be met by women.

Questin - men being willing to pay for sex creates a demand, yes, but that doesn't mean that women have to supply. There are clearly a multitude of reasons for why women get into that situation. It's not as simple as "Men want it so I'll do it."

Prostitutes are always going to exist imo, just like rape, just like murder. You will never be able to remove the demand for paid sex, just like the laughable "War on Drugs" will never remove demand for drugs. The most we can do is reduce demand.

*Quentin

Yes I agree. In my opinion decriminalising the purchase of sex (e.g. the punters) works against reducing demand for prostitutes. This is demonstrated by the experience of countries like Germany and the Netherlands, where decriminalisation of purchasing has increased demand with a resultant increase in trafficking.
The people who are benefitting from decriminalisation in those places are the brothel owners and the punters. The prostitutes themselves are being treated as a commodity with low prices the norm.
I cannot understand how anyone can call themselves a feminist yet push for decriminalisation of the purchase of sex. It has no demonstrable benefit for women, but plenty for men.

You could also remove the demand by encouraging men to stop seeing provision of their orgasm as an entitlement that must be met by women.

You could indeed. You could also hold a candlelit vigil for world peace. But until male sexual entitlement just vanishes a role for the state should be recognised.

Let me ask you this: have cultural attitudes to women overall improved since the 1950's? However bad things still are, things are better yeah? Well in that case, why hasn't the sex industry declined in paralell with the advance of feminism? Why, indeed, has it expanded to a vast degree? That suggests that there is an economic dimension to this.

If it was the only the false consciousness of patriarchy that was drawing women into, say, the porn industry, then they would be entering it in equal numbers from all walks of life? But how many Harvard grads go to LA in pursuit of a career in porn? Precious few. Most of those girls come from Mid West trailer parks where they have an option between porn and waitressing for a pittance. And it's all very well middle-class liberals lecturing these women but unless we're prepared to create meaningful, well-paid jobs and opportunities for them that don't involve then degrading themselves for money then this will continue. Fact. Men are not just going to suddenly stop being arseholes anymore than porn barons are going to stop wanting to make money. Yeah, patriarchal attitudes over the next few centuries, but in the meantime something has to be done by governments.

You yourself argue for state intervention in the form of criminalising punters. She why should the state not use its power to redistribute wealth from the rich to some of the poorer women in society?

money. Yeah, patriarchal attitudes may decline over the next few centuries, but in the meantime something has to be done by governments.

Because if I really wanted to go and charge someone to sleep with me right now to earn some extra money then I believe I should be able to let whomever I choose do whatever I choose to me for whatever price I choose - it is my body so I should be able to sell it if I want to. I don't think backstreet brothels etc are the answer, I think nice buildings with lots of cctv and registration processes, sign-in sheets, use of ID, supply of condoms etc, and receptionists/security guards etc on the premises is the way forward. Everyone who enters the "brothel", although I'm thinking more a higher-class escort-esque service, supplies ID and signs in, is seen on CCTV etc, does business with said woman, who does not have a pimp etc but rather is self-employed and using the brothel as her workplace so to speak, pays, leaves is the way forward. This keeps workers relatively safe.

I would still push for keeping street hustling/pimping/sex outside with punters called in off the street illegal.

Enforce the Nordic model at the same time if you want, but unless you remove the economic imperative for women to resort to prostitution in the first place then it will continue to exist.

This is already part of the Nordic Model as applies in Sweden. I consider it a vital part if the model is to have any success.

Another reason for women to enter into prostitution "voluntarily" is childhood sexual abuse. Some think they can get over the trauma by repeating it while getting paid for it, (this seems to be a reason for financially well-off women to do it), some have such a disconnect between their minds and bodies that they are able to not feel their bodies while punters use them, which makes it much easier - and therefore more worth the money - to prostitute themselves.

Providing adequate therapy to those women is also part of the Nordic Model.

I should be able to let whomever I choose do whatever I choose to me for whatever price I choose - it is my body so I should be able to sell it if I want to.

Do you also want to be allowed to sell your kidneys? If not, why not?

Lilac, do you also feel you should be able to sell your kidneys?

I think nice buildings with lots of cctv and registration processes, sign-in sheets, use of ID, supply of condoms etc, and receptionists/security guards etc

Hazardous waste disposal, protective gear, full liability insurance (how much to you think it will cost to be insured when your job is to have so much body fluid contact?). Prostitution is probably made more safe by being able to eject clients, but you're still going into a room with a client alone, you're still mixing body fluids with them which is an enormous health risk, and there's only so much clients are going to be prepared to pay - do you think that once you're in your wellies and plastic apron, with protective eye wear, once you've paid your various insurances and pension, that you're actually earning enough to make it worth it?

Or do you want it to remain under the table, so you can risk your health tax free, but in a nicer room?

C'mon people you cannot allow anyone to own anyone else. That's slavery and we worked out that was a bad idea a long time ago. Renting someone is indentured servitude and not much better. We cannot make this ok as we don't just damage individuals we damage ourselves too.

lilac I couldn't care less what you or any woman chooses to do with your body. It is of supreme indifference to me if you choose to accept money in exchange for sex.
I don't agree with MEN believing they are so entitled to sex they would pay for it from someone who wouldn't ordinarily go near them. I have a problem with the decriminalisation model that encourages MEN to think buying sex is reasonable.
I am fed up of hearing about poor old disabled/ugly/shy/weird MEN and their sexual needs that must be met so we need prostitutes.
It's really convenient to focus on the sex workers rights here but that isn't the problem. The problem is the patriarchy. As usual.

Hi Lilac would I be right in thinking you are the friend of GenderEqualityAdvocate? Your story sounds very similar to one of his prostitutes/friends.

I find it really sad what you are saying about yourself when you were so young. You were hugely betrayed. I wonder why you don't see or accept that was the case. No matter how cocky and precocious a 14 year girl is - thinking she is tough and knows it all, she is still just 14 - naive and vulnerable to manipulation and exploitation.

I should be able to let whomever I choose do whatever I choose to me for whatever price I choose - it is my body so I should be able to sell it if I want to

Fine then go ahead. Just don't bang on about but prostitution needs to be made safer

There are many dangerous jobs where society needs to make sure are conducted in as safe a manner as possible for the workers concerned.
I mean real workers like all the emergency services, the army, social workers, prison officers, even animal welfare officers. We need them- without them everyone's lives would be worse.

Nobody needs what you do; if you didn't do it some men, who are less than pond scum, miss out on a paid for masturbatory receptacle. My heart would not bleed.

I'm sorry this post is harsh but I'm fed up of seeing thread after thread trying to normalise prostitution.

I agree, you can't have it both ways. Either you are vulnerable, or you are making a totally free choice to do what you want with your body and there should be no limits put on it as a consensual act. It's your argument. You decide.

I do not believe that prostitution should be enabled and normalised. It is dangerous, and it should be reduced as much as possible. And I think the best way to do that is to tackle demand by making it less attractive to buy sex or exploit women for sex.

I think there is a degree of hypocrisy about prostitution in that it's seen as somehow worse than porn. I've met people who oppose prostitution vehemently but who nevertheless admit to using porn, and it's like 'what's the difference?'. Porn is a form of filmed prostitution in which someone is being paid to give you sexual pleasure, and it interfaces with things like sex trafficking and abuse. The fact that it's happening remotely is neither here nor there.

I'm not accusing people on here of that who for all I know are very consistent in their values; but it is a very common blind spot.

I was thinking that earlier lass. It's odd to say it's a job and perfectly safe for the prostitutes , but then argue decriminalisation is required because it's not currently safe
My main bugbear is the total invisibility of the punters in these arguments.

I used to work as a prostitute, in my early 20s.
I am not from an abusive background, on the contrary, i grew up in a loving family and im still close to my siblings and parents.
Noone forced me into it and i had no drug habits or such to feed.
I worked in brothels and for escort agencies. Then i went into stripping, which is actually harder some ways as you need to go up to guys to sell lapdances. I am a massive introvert, and im not bubbly, so i struggled with that. Now ( 10 years later) im in a totally different, professional field. I also put myself through Uni. My family doesnt know ( they are not in the UK). I used to send them money regularly.
I was raped ( and robbed and beaten) at knifepoint once. I took a few days off then went to work in another flat. I know, it makes no sense. I dealt with it in a weird way. Now i wish i had reported the bastard, but at that time i thought the police surely wouldnt take a working girl seriously ( especially an eastern european one).
I am single currently, but when im in a relationship i have no problems with intimacy, i enjoy sex etc. ( yes, i have been tested a million times, and although i had sex with hundreds of men it was never without a condom).
I am a very analytical person and i struggle to understand how guys can enjoy sex knowing that the girl is only there for the money. Also, how can they not care that the girl just had sex with another guy 5 minutes earlier.. :/

I never had a pimp who took my money and i was single while i did this job.
I worked with girls who had "boyfriends". Also, 2 girls who were originally trafficked into the UK, but by the time i worked with them they were working for themselves. One ended up as a coke addict, married one of the escort agency drivers and had a baby with him.
I have also worked with girls who, like me, had no addictions and had ambitions for their lives. A lot of girls spent huge amounts on drugs/ nails/ shoes/ handbags. I have little interest in these things.
Some of the flats i worked in had panick buttons/ security guys.
Some just had a receptionist ( the one i got raped in was one such flat).
When i did the escorting i worried for my safety more, in some ways. A lot of it was night time work, early morning, guys high on drugs. Also, most of the drivers had daytime jobs and were exhausted, 2 of the particularly, i was scared that they would fall asleep while driving so refused to get in their cars.. the owner sacked me for this :)
I think making prostitution illegal will force it more underground which can lead to more exploitation.
It is a really difficult, complex topic with no simple answers.
More should be done to stop human trafficking, that is for sure.

i struggle to understand how guys can enjoy sex knowing that the girl is only there for the money.
Basically they couldn't give a crap about what the woman really feels as long as it doesn't interfere with his fantasy. The woman is an unimportant form of subhuman that exists to be sexually used.

Obviously this is not a healthy male attitude or belief, and the fact that prostitution caters to it, encourages it and normalises it, threatens the safety, equality and wellbeing of all women - and more so if prostitution is legalised.

Well said Guardian.

It is not healthy but it is very common. I think it is quite possible that all guys think this way. ( i obviously have little faith in mankind)
When a guy goes to a prostitute the first time he already has this mindset. Where does the mindset comes from? Porn? Prostitution is older than porn.

It is not healthy but it is very common.
The subjugation of women is as old as the written word - we've legally been little more than the legal possessions of men across the world historically. Think about it.

Women now, have never had it so good - and it's all through the gains of feminism.

Some men are insecure about losing out to feminism and would rather cling to their assured position of social importance and dominance (ie superiority) over women - just like they had it 'back then' (when women were completely subjugated).

It's interesting that the majority of porn (which is made by and for men) shows women being subjugated, degraded, insulted, cruelly violated and humiliated.

To me it is no coincidence that this explosion of misogyny in porn has occured in conjunction with women having massive leaps in social status.

Feminism has polarised men - into those who really wish women well in our gains- even though they might sometimes feel conflicted about it, and those who feel threatened and commonly use porn and prostitution to enjoy a backwards step to the days of women's subjugation. The ones who paid to use you in prostitution fall into that second category.

And those insecure men simply have to get used to the reality that women are not inferior, not their mindless possessions, not their mindless servants or their mindless sex toys. We are fully human.

ChocChoc - Paid sex is no more risky than casual un-paid sex? I don't take everyone I have sex with to the clinic to check what I can catch from their bodily fluids etc. I've had unprotected sex with more people for free than I have paid, so how did the act of cash being exchanged make it more dangerous to my health?

Selling my kidneys would mean I'd probably die or need dialysis for the rest of my life? Having protected sex with someone (no kissing, I don't even kiss my partner during sex)... doesn't harm me/hassle me in the same way as having one or no kidneys. Selling my kidneys would mean I'm literally selling a body part someone can walk away with... When I sell my body for sex I'm not giving anyone a physical body part to keep as their own, at the end of the day I still have my vagina, I wouldn't have my kidneys. Big difference imo.

If you have to pay to get something I don't see that as entitled. Surely expecting it for free is entitled? I mean there were a few guys who wanted to sleep with me for free, just casual sex, but I would ask "but what do I get out of it?" because why would I do it for free when I could get something out of it? Even now when my partner wants to initiate sex with me I try and make deals about 'only if I get a lie-in', 'only if you make me the best coffees tomorrow' 'only if we do this tomorrow' because sex is a great bargaining tool imo.

I'm Lilac btw, obviously 😂