Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

Sparrowhawk - the bad experiences were from men in bars and clubs who think it's okay to grab my bottom. Those who get offended when you say no thanks to them buying you a drink. Random guys who try and get your number and then call you a whore when you say no. And on one occassion waking up in my tent at a festival to a guy close to having my knickers down.
Every girl I know has been objectified by someone at some point growing up. The key is not to just say that men that use prostitutes are dangerous.

This is a high level analysis and I do not mean to imply that every person who uses porn is violent or abusive. Especially as the way in which porn is normalised means that most users (myself included) do not consider the wider implications of their consumption.

Well maybe they should. No doubt there are men who use prostitutes who do not consider the wider implications of their consumption. Maybe they have quite a good relationship with the independent escort they see. Maybe they're an otherwise perfectly nice person. Would that serve as an excuse? Slavery was once normalised - did that make it alright?

People are kind of saying 'using one form of the sex industry is not so bad, but another isnt'. And they're also suggesting it isn't as bad when women do it.

I'm not having a go at you or saying that you're a bad person, just saying that the debate needs to widen a bit.

Guardian here and now.

If women use porn (which many of them do now) is that bad? Or is it only bad when men do it?

What I'm getting at is if you define prostitution as rape, then all prostitutes have been raped, and that would give you nearly 80,000 of your stats, leaving 5,000 left for 'non prostitution' rape, which is higher than 10% of annual reported rapes (about 20,000) which is more than double the conviction rate, so i think your stats probably do define paid for sex as automatically non-consensual and rape.

Have i got that right?

Why is it so important that women are castigated? Women already have their choices examined and put under the microscope to a staggering degree. Just look at discussions surrounding careers vs motherhood, to breastfeed or not, single mothers regularly demonized in the press, where the men who got them pregnant are completely ignored.

The idea of any sort of level playing field is laughable. In addition for the name independantthinker you seem to have strong views on enforcing your moral standard upon others. I think you've missed an irony there...

This isn't just whataboutery BTW, it's a fundamental issue of coherence. If you're going to mount a critique of the sex industry, then it has to be cogent.

'The key is not to just say that men that use prostitutes are dangerous.'

Nobody on this thread said that only men who use prostitutes are dangerous. Men in general are a danger to women, as you know. That is why men renting women's bodies is very dangerous.

It's interesting that you say men 'use' prostitutes. Makes them seem like objects rather than people.

"Well maybe they should. No doubt there are men who use prostitutes who do not consider the wider implications of their consumption. Maybe they have quite a good relationship with the independent escort they see. Maybe they're an otherwise perfectly nice person. Would that serve as an excuse? Slavery was once normalised - did that make it alright?

People are kind of saying 'using one form of the sex industry is not so bad, but another isnt'. And they're also suggesting it isn't as bad when women do it. "

Well of course they should. Did you read my posts? I said I used to use porn and I bought into the choice narrative and sex positivism and believed that I could use it in a different way that wasn't exploitative. And that recently I have read and thought and discussed these issues with others and decided that I was wrong so I have revised my opinions.

And I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that they are in favour of banning prostitution and encouraging porn? It's obviously logically inconsistent.

What I did say is that I don't think everyone who uses porn is irredeemably evil/sexist and cannot have their opinions changed.

Sparrowhawk - ANYONE can be a danger to anyone else. Even though I've had bad experiences of some men, I would never suggest that "men in general are a danger to women". That's just nonsense. I have encountered thousands and thousands of men in my life in various areas, situation and contexts, and I could count on two hands the amount of times I've been demeaned by a man. Miniscule percentages. Yes, I said men who use prostitutes (shock horror) - this must mean everything else I've said is null and void!!!

Dervel, so women should be free to consume whatever porn they like yeah? If a woman getts off on 'barely legal ebony bitch gets raped' then she gets a pat on the head for making an empowered sexual choice?

That is an absurd double standard. It morally infantallizes women apart from anything else. Should women not be subject to critical examination, or are they children?

They should be subject to exactly the same standards as men, but they should be judged by a standard.

The stuff about careers etc are sexist because they are standards applied to women which are not applied to men. I'm saying that both men and women should be held to the same moral standard regarding their use of the sex industry.

No, scary, you haven't got that right. Those stats are from rape crisis who define rape according to the CPS definition, which does not include prostitution. Here is a link for you to read their extensive statistics and research: rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

What I did say is that I don't think everyone who uses porn is irredeemably evil/sexist and cannot have their opinions changed

Ditto prostitution.

People are kind of saying 'using one form of the sex industry is not so bad, but another isnt'.
I'm not so sure they are. I think there is a sense that one thing is less direct and easier to 'fall into', and more difficult to police than the other. The porn industry is a huge feminist issue.
And they're also suggesting it isn't as bad when women do it.
Again 'bad' isn't the thing. It is more about reinforcing your own oppression when women watch it, where as males reinforce their role as oppressor so the wider social implication is still anti-woman (including 'anti' the female user herself).
This issue is separate from the creating the demand issue, where female users are equally culpable.

The very act of sex is fundementally unequal. At least in terms of risk. As a man I risk exposure to STDs and legal obligation to any children, any woman who does the same risks physical changes to her body up to and including death. Any discussion that doesn't take that into account those facts will not produce anything of value.

Things can be equal if you take the focus off of piv sex. You can reach a more egalitarian approach to human sexuality if you stop making that the focus.

inde
Guardian here and now.
Then you must analyse it within the context of this patriarchal woman-hating world to find the answer you are looking for.

Dervel - Oh please!!!!! You want to reinvent sex then? What on earth....

Wow Pirate, you've only been demeaned by men 5-10 times? Lucky you!

Again 'bad' isn't the thing. It is more about reinforcing your own oppression when women watch it, where as males reinforce their role as oppressor so the wider social implication is still anti-woman (including 'anti' the female user herself).
This issue is separate from the creating the demand issue, where female users are equally culpable.

I'm sorry but it is about 'bad'. Suppose a woman is enjoying some sapphic porn produced by women; or some porn produced by a woman in which a man is objectified; or some gay porn? She's not reinforcing her own oppression there is she? So is that act of consumption therefore acceptable,?

Sparrowhawk - I'm not saying any amount of being demeaned is acceptable. But to suggest that "men are generally a danger to women" is just insane. What damaging things have happened in your life to lead you to this conclusion?

independent my approach to human sexuality is more upstream from yours. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with either prostitution or pornography.

In my view our whole modern attitudes towards sex itself are unhealthy, so when you get to sex in practice you see problems all over the place.

My contention that if you solved the problem at source a lot of other stuff would get cleared up.

I actually think repression and policing of women's sexuality would feed into the very problem you wish to solve, and in fact is a big reason we're in this mess in the first place.

Suppose a woman is enjoying some sapphic porn produced by women; or some porn produced by a woman in which a man is objectified; or some gay porn? She's not reinforcing her own oppression there is she?
Although I'm not a porn user, I've read analyses of porn and there are criticism that in lesbian/gay porn there is still themes of the 'Top' or 'butch' degrading and violating the 'bottom' or 'femme' in such a way that represents the male domination of females in straight porn. So yes, she is still eroticising her own internalised oppression if she watches gay or lesbian porn.

Ok so that's 4 times reported rapes and more than 40 times the conviction rate.

Actually i note it includes sexual assaults and attempted sexual assaults as rape. It's not clear if that's all sexual assaults (including on men) though.

So it's NOT the CPS definition.

My personal use of porn has definitely been about reinforcing my own oppression. The more I examine it the clearer that is to me.

Can women (or men) consume porn in ways that don't do this. You know what there are probably occasions where they can at least approach it. In the same way that I don't deny that women can have positive experiences in prostitution. But a proper analysis demand a that we look at the overall harms and benefits caused by a behaviour and identity politics obscures that.

Guardian here and now.
Then you must analyse it within the context of this patriarchal woman-hating world to find the answer you are looking for.

Look at it like this. I'm sure you will agree that for centuries one of the great lies enforced by patriarchy was that women are not sexual beings; that they're just harmlessly fluffy creatures who fall in love and like flowers.

Women are sexual beings. We are all sexual beings. And the thing with sexual beings is that they become aroused by sexual stimuli. Of course the question of what arouses them is determined by all sorts of complex factotrs - but everyone responds to sexual stimuli of one kind or another.

The very cynical people who run Pornhub and these other sites know this. That is why they make huge amounts of money. Now, in the end they do not care what people get off to or who they are - all that they care about is the fact that you click on to their site, surrender your data which they can sell on and make them oodles of dosh.

And rather than just enforcing a very patriarchal representation of sex, they're happy for representations to be as diverse as possible so as to maximise their audience, and, in turn, their profits. Yes, there is a preponderance of misogynist stuff on that there, but there is an increasing diversity of material as well -material that draws in a female audience. Women can even create their own porn and post it on there. Here is a women who finds the prospect of lots of men, women (and children, inevitably - because they can freely access these sites) masturbating to videos of her masturbating. Freud was wrong about lots of things, but he was right in thinking that children arevsexual beings too. This is why Porn 2.O sites were developed. Sites requiring a credit card limited your audience to adults. Now they can children in at a young age and get them hooked.

www.thefrisky.com/2014-03-25/how-to-empower-yourself-through-diy-porn/

Madness.

Do you think Pornhub have a problem with women uploading these videos of themselves? No. Do you think Pornhb care that more and more women are using porn rather than consumption being predominantly male? No, they welcome it. They could not give a hoot about perpetuating the patriarchy. They just want as many people watching and uploading videos as possible - whether that's 'feminist' porn, revenge porn, gay porn - obese women with a limb missing...whatever.

The gender critical lens is very important, but you cannot understand what is happening just through looking at porn through that lens. And it isn't JUST about men anymore.