Fun fact: no law covering which toilet men or women can use!

[Iris65]

I know....isn't it?

All those threads getting so upset about ......trans people being able to do what everyone can already do!

So what is it that is exercising so many of the most prolific and vocal posters in this hot topic?

Opinions are like arseholes; everyone has one

Why do you think its ok to tell children that if you are born biologically male you must conform to this set of stereotypes, based on your sex. You must act in this way, dress this way, do these things and if you want to do something that is reserved for the stereotypes that have been assigned for the female sex

Show me where I have ever said that?

No?

There is no satisfactory, objective way to identify someone's gender identity......other than to ask them.

😀

Yeah, because they aren't engaging. They just want to spout their own views without any engagement.

It's boring.

I think it is important to remember that TA's are highly manipulative, it is part of their narcissistic personality. They will try and goad women

And another negative stereotype.

These kind of comments are just not appropriate in civilised discourse.

Blah blah blah

Sorry Bundesliga who is not engaging?

If its me there are three things to know:

1. I prefer not to spend hours of my life on MN.
2. There are a number of threads that I am interested in.
3. I prefer not to engage with posts that call me names, insult me and are generally below the level of discourse that is acceptable - other than to either report them if they don't meet MN guidelines or to point out that a statement is inappropriate.

Hope that helps.

If you're not referring to me then fine. 😀

I actually agree that a woman who has been abused should not be expected to share a room with a person who has adult male genitals. I also think that hospital wards where men and women share bays are problematic...OK. So how would you protect these areas while at the same time allowing people to gain legal recognition as a woman based on their feminine gender identity?

Those areas can be protected by:

1. Hospitals providng single rooms for those trans women who have retained their male genitals.
2. Refuges allowing women to express their preference regarding a room share or having single rooms available.

You didn't ask of it was economically feasible or always possible 😉
And actually there are not that many trans people in society - so places have policies and know how to implement it when necessary.

Of course, the reality, as is the case now, is that practicalities override policy and males are sometimes in female bays and vice versa.

But TBH most folks aren't flashing their genitals about so it shouldn't be an issue unless someone objects having seen the genitals in question.

Suspecting or perceving or being told that someone is trans should never be the basis for those kind of actions.

The only issue that should be addressed in my opinion is situations where the person complaining has been told by the trans person that they still have adult male genitals or where adult male genitals are being shown naked or have been seen.

Blah blah blah

In a world that expects silent compliance from women, speaking openly about male violence can be a revolutionary act, one that is often met with hostility.

"Bigger stronger more violent humans tend to have a penis. They statistically are a threat to smaller weaker less violent humans.

Blame the one's born with a penis for that. People with vulvas and wombs need refuges to escape from being beaten to death. Bigger stronger more violent humans really frighten us and we are triggered if we see them in our safe spaces. 1 in 5 of us has been sexually assaulted or raped. We have valid concerns.

This is not about pissing but you know that. If bigger stronger more violent humans can stop their violence towards us we won't need safe places. Then dicks in trousers or dresses will be welcome everywhere.

This is not about trans people. This is about bigger stronger more violent humans, hitting us, raping us, killing us. You know that too, but YOU don't care.

Trans men are not a problem to us this is about male pattern violence and Trans women like men are bigger stronger more violent humans who beat us, rape us and kill us.

There is no valid argument to let bigger stronger more violent XYs in our safe spaces whether they wear pants or knickers. You know that deep down.

You are not very nice. People reading this are not idiots, they realise this too. Carry on, as you're bringing more and more of us over to the side of logic. Three weeks ago I had no idea what was going on. Thanks to people like you I do now."

Well said.

If you are worried about bigger stronger human beings life must be very difficult for you - genuinely.

There are plenty of women who are much bigger, stronger than me, plenty of women who are aggressive and violent.

Charcterising a whole group as violent, sexually predatory is not helpful at best and bigoted and ignorant at worst.

As for saying that I don't care about men's violence towards women:

1. I am a survivor of a great deal of physical violence from my father and my XH.
2. I am an active campaigner(30years +) for the provision and maintenance of womens'refuges and for womens' equality.
3. I challenge abusive and/or aggressive and violent behaviour where-ever I see it and whomever it is directed to. 😊

*Should clarify - whole group of people with XY chromosomes.

We are talking about people not chromosomes.

I could tell you how complicated the are of sex chromosomes is, but I have explained (some of it) on other threads and its repetitive.

In a world that expects silent compliance from women, speaking openly about male violence can be a revolutionary act, one that is often met with hostility.

I agree.

We're talking about trans women here - a small and frequently victimised group who experience a great deal of male violence themselves.In amongst the day to day hostility and discrimination. Unfortunately several threads on MN and posts on other threads illustrate this all too clearly,

I could tell you how complicated the are of sex chromosomes is, but I have explained (some of it) on other threads and its repetitive.
1 in 1666 people have sex chromosomes that are not XX and not XY
Androgen Insensitivity syndrome (the other favourite of TRAs) is 1 in 13000
Tell you what, instead of focusing on how "complicated" sex chromosomes are in a people with a medical disorder, which is kind of crass and insensitive to intersex people, perhaps you could engage with the point that was made about 99.9% of male bodied people (those with XY chromosomes )

People who try to characterise male violence as "people violence" and argue "women do it too" aren't feminists.

You've said yourself you aren't happy with unisex provision of things like hospital wards and refuge places. Why is that?

What's crass about pointing out that grasping onto XY as a label to exclude people is simplistic and unhelpful?

The point that suggested that all men are violent rapists you mean?

We should be working towards a world where violence and sexual assault are rare. Where people are valued as individuals and not subjected to negative stereotyping and bigotry. A world where there is true equality and where the minorites and the oppressed don't turn on each other and instead support each other.

Demonising trans women will not prevent one single rape, one single act of violence. In fact, demonising groups has been shown over and over again to increase violence of all types.

You have no right to say that I am not a feminist. I regard that as a personal attack and wholely inappropriate.

I did not say that I was not happy with single sex wards etc.

In fact I have shared a ward with men, many, many times. I have also shared a single sex ward with a trans woman. There were no issues for me apart from the socially normative one of not wanting to see naked genitals.

It should be possible for single sex wards to be provided as many women and men prefer not to share. This is because there is a lack of privacy and a greater risk of exposure of the body to the view of others. (This is also why I suggested that trans women (who retain their adult male genitals) and those around them have the provisions detailed.)

The issue we are discussing is trans women accessing facilities identified as female. We're not discussing men using those facilities. 😀

I'm not deliberately posting and running but I have other stuff to do.

Clarification. I have reread your post and realise it wasn't a personal attack. Sorry. 😊

Iris you need a bit of critical thinking training.
Saying all rapists are male is not the same as saying all males are rapists.
Like saying "all goldfish are fish" (true) is not the same as saying "all fish are goldfish" (false).
No one is using chromosomes to exclude anyone. They are using it as a diagnostic for male, since 99.95% of male bodied people have XY chromosomes. The ones that don't have a medical disorder. It's crass to use medical conditions to further your political agenda.

I have been reading a lot of these threads, and like many, if not all, have huge sympathy for those who are so unhappy with their physical sex that they feel they must change it.

However, what is coming across to me is that there is a very vocal group of trans women whose claims and demands will trample all over the rights and feelings of women.
The more this group shout and yell "but we are real women" and demand access to what should be safe spaces, the more they try to silence and talk over women with cries of "bigot" and "terf" and the very fact that they cannot understand or have any empathy for a rape victim in a woman's shelter, a vulnerable woman in a mental health hospital, an elderly lady receiving intimate care, or at its most simple the fact that I, a woman of nearly 60, can feel threatened by the presence of a strange man when I am on my own as I could be in a public toilet.

If you can't understand that, then all your actions do is show how you are not "real" women but in fact, men.

And before you try to shout me down, I know "not all men" are like that.

In fact, demonising groups has been shown over and over again to increase violence of all types

Agree. In any group of people there will be examples of some of that group commuting violent acts.

We don't as a rule judge an entire group of people by what the worst of them has done.

So you campaign to keep women safe from some bigger stronger more violent humans.

"2) I am an active campaigner(30years +) for the provision and maintenance of womens'refuges and for womens' equality"

So why do you that exactly. Why do women need refuges? Why are you campaigning to have separate spaces for women and from whom and for what purpose?

'Charcterising a whole group as violent, sexually predatory is not helpful at best and bigoted and ignorant at worst

Isn't that what we do when arguing for womens refuges, is it bigoted to have safe places for women, to protect them from some men?

Why do you campaign for them then. Or is it ok to campaign and exclude one group as long as they conform to male sex stereotypes. That would seem dangerous to me. Wearing a skirt does not delete the risk.

You know the simple question is do XX's need safe spaces sometimes from XY's.

They either do or they don't and if they do why would some XYs get a pass due to the clothes they wear.

Trans women or XY's retain male pattern violence and are bigger and stronger.

Why if they truly have lady brains like they say are their brains heavier than womens, like their lungs, hearts, bones etc?

Biology is not bigotry.