Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Very sad state if affairs when people feel the need to be anonymous, says it all really.

"To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one. You can be at any stage in the transition process – from proposing to reassign your gender, to undergoing a process to reassign your gender, or having completed it."

But this is about being protected from discrimination - e.g. losing your job because you're trans. What it means is that you're protected from discrimination even if you haven't got a GRC yet. Not that you can legally self-identify as the opposite sex.

I wrote to my MP, he shares my concerns about children/teenagers being encouraged to transition, (this is my primary concern as my family are directly affected - only now are the full ramifications sinking in) and he contacted Justin Greening who replied to him. There was a positive paragraph on how gender non-conformity should be encouraged, then a more woolly "freedom to explore their identity in an environment that is open to diversity" which can "help children challenge negative gender stereotypes". Then a paragraph about how puberty blockers are reversible and used only with caution. I followed this up directly with her, saying among many other things that puberty blockers may not be psychologically reversible and then got a reply from a health policy person, about health policy for transgender young people. i.e. what is appropriate if a young person is "definitely" (my emphasis) transgender. Nothing about if a young person is not actually transgender (whatever that means) and is actually confused/anxious/autistic etc. This is a policy based on a belief that being transgender has a biological basis (that treatment should be somatic, not psychological).

That is as far as I am able to go I think - I won't risk alienating my child by openly campaigning, but I could cry with relief that you wonderful people are so passionate and articulate.

As discussed upstream - the issue is not about transgender people, but transactvists. And a campaign that could generate headlines about all transwomen only wanting to gain access to women's spaces for a sexual fetish does not get my support.

But is about the fact that ideology is driving medical and educational policy.

Biology, evidence and facts matter. Teaching children that there are blue brains and pink brains is wrong. Teaching from the earliest age that a boy can wear and do whatever he wants, wear girl's clothes is not wrong - it is challenging gender stereotypes. So when a boy dressed like a girl uses the boys' toilets, that is fine. He is still a boy. When a girl dressed like a boy uses the girls toilets, that is fine, she is still a girl. Then perhaps those children will grow up without the prejudices which have led to this madness. That will be a long time coming.

Regarding self-identification I have to say that, given that may child may persist for now, purely from their own safety (and to allow a route back if they decide this was not a good path to follow) I think there is a case for allowing this to happen without them being obliged to seek permanent medical changes in order to get a GRC. The policy that works for this is for everyone to use the services and facilities of their biological sex, and for it to be a hate crime and transphobic to suggest otherwise. Then we don't get rapists described as women, and girls can object to a getting undressed in front of someone of the opposite sex. So (as my kids seem to understand it) gender can be an expression of identity which is independent from biological sex, so that eventually this can all fade away.

Irenethequaint. Read the act. It is not just about employment. I support transgender people sharing the same rights at work, so long as they don't supersede others' rights.

This is exactly it; we stand for the rights of transpeople who want to change gender due to body dismorphia.

We do not stand of the rights of men who want to dress as a woman and access women's spaces, and have to treat them as 'women' if they say we are.

Most people do not realise there is a difference. The language has been hijacked.

How do we address this? I have written to my MP. Is this mentioned in the private bill, I cannot access the wording for some reason.

Stopmakingsense

There are so many layers to transgenderism. But the transactivists are generally split into two. One is cross dressing men with a fetish and the other is young liberal kids with an ideal.

Whilst I agree with everything you have said, you cannot ignore the more unsavoury side. I realise that equating young gender nonconforming, confused children with late transitioning fetishists is ludicrous (and it is this which leads to the polarising of opinion), they nonetheless are both considered under the trans umbrella.

And it is the latter who have all the clout and all the power.

The two brothers who made the Matrix series have both come out as transwomen. Previously they had both frequented BDSM clubs, quite openly and one is in a relationship with a dominatrix. I really don't care what someone does in their spare time, but I do care when it starts to affect policy. Incidentally they are now being feted for their bravery as being the first 'women' to write a successful film trilogy.

Caitlyn Jenner is a poster girl for the movement. Another very powerful person. Another who boasted of stealing her daughter's underwear.

Frank Maloney - again, a powerful former man. Who subjected his wife to domestic violence. Again, being feted in the media as 'brave' and being splashed across talkshows.

Where else would you ever get people who steal their children's underwear, indulge in sadomasochism and beat up their wives being used as an example of 'bravery' and enlightenment?

If a campaign about the negative effects on children has a knock on effect to this element, then all to the good. But no one should ignore where the money and power is coming from and why,

Placemarking with interest. Have been reading all the threads with interest esp since the Jenni Murray article.

I'm on Twitter so would be grateful if someone could list any people on Twitter who would be good to follow re. this issue - as a starting point.

I've requested the details of my MP's next surgeries and asked for a meeting.

I wish I didn't have to make sure this was all anonymous, unfortunately I fear my professional registration and therefore my job may be at risk if this all goes the way it seems to be at the moment. Locally it's not such an issue but I can't be vocal on social media as 'me'. Sad times indeed.

I realise that this is a bit nasty, but is there any way of tying in concerns re the bill to questions of security / terrorism - can't have all these randomly and radically changed identities floating around!

Japanese I have no problem with anyone identifying as anything for any reason. If a man wants to identify as a turnip and go fight the galexy because he believes in spoon he's more than welcome imo.

But female/male can not be identified into. That's fact. And sex segregated areas should remain sex segregated for that reason. Language used to talk about those experiences is already defined and in use and is in no need of redefinition as it describes facts, not value or anything else, just science. And medical treatment should remain for those with medical diagnosis, ie gender dysphoria. And first line treatment should be therapy before anything else.

But I don't think it actually matters why someone feels they need to identify differently, as in I don't think that's our areas to be dictating, as female experience, spaces, and language arn't 'theirs' to be dictating. I think the focus needs to remain on that, that we are protecting female rights and issues, not barging our way into others. Because that's what TRA's are doing to us (menstrual blood is pomegranit pee pee!!) that we are obejecting to.

Bagel - if you try 4thwavenow, fair play for women, gendercriticaldad, peachyoghurt, gendertrender, Miranda Yardley, MagdelenBerns that will start you off with a good range of gender critical viewpoints, and you will see who they are following.

And no offense meant for fudged terms etc v sleep deprived

Frankly, by this point, I'd settle for labelling loos as 'Dicks' and 'Non-dicks'.

Hi Bev,

A woman is - well its complicated - bit that's not an answer that many accept. The existence of chromosomal and physical abnormalities means that we have to accept that a woman is someone who identifies as such.

If we try and define it any other way then we end up telling people who have abnormal sex chromosomes that they are either of the gender with which they don't identify or are somehow 'intersex' and cannot be categorised - which causes all sorts of problems.

The incidence of these abnormalities is surprisingly common: "The most common sex chromosome aneuploidies are 45,X (Turner syndrome); 47,XXY (Klinefelter syndrome); 47,XYY (XYY syndrome); and 47,XXX, which have birth frequencies of approximately 1 in 2500, 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000, 1 in 850 to 1 in 3000, and 1 in 1000, respectively." From: www.uptodate.com/contents/sex-chromosome-abnormalities

Those who are fortunate enought to have a gender identity which is consistent with our chromosomes and/or don't have sex chromosome abnormalities often find it difficult to understand or empathise with those who don't.

The other issue with using chromosomal or physical standards is that people are born with genital and reporductive system abnormalities. For example a female may be born with a large clitoris and be wrongly identified as male at birth. Others are born without a uterus or without ovaries or without a vagina. A chromosomally normal male may be born without a functioning penis and/or testicles. Others are born with a micropenis which is mistaken for a clitoris and the boy registered as a girl.

As you can see the area of sex recognition and gender identity is very complex. So..... a woman is someone is someone who feels that they are female. For this to be recognised by wider society the person must satisfy the standards of the current legislation. See my earlier posts for clarification on that. 😀

*but not bit.

Can we all agree not to be sidetracked? Iris has posted on several thread with intntion of engaging or dabate and while she has no idea what a woman is

I'm less charitable. It reads to me like the poster known as Iris is simply trying to sidetrack. ...

I think it is important to focus on doing something re this bill and the issue writ large.

As you can see the area of sex recognition and gender identity is very complex.

Ridiculous. Sex is a binary - TWO. Even intersex uses that binary.

And Iris The intersex society in this country have repeatedly asked people to not include them in transgender debates. GIRES tried to pressure them into a collaboration, which they flatly refused.

It is utterly disrespectful to intersex people to try and co-opt them to endorse the transgender ideology. They have asked repeatedly that you don't do it.

There also seems to be a belief that there are many, many trans people who are just waiting to 'invade female toilets and changing rooms' so that they can wave their penises around and to dominate women's spaces and women's organisations etc.
This is all part of a familiar narrative of demonisation and the kinds of things that are being posted in these threads are from the very same narrative of racism and homophobia.
Protecting the rights of one group - those who are trans - does not entail reducing the rights of another - women. It is a tragedy that we are being divided as a community by this issue.
Focus on fighting for the equality of all and justice for all rather than attacking other victims of bigotry and oppression.

Place marking with interest as keen to support some concerted action.

Please ignore anyone who tries to conflate transgenderism with being intersex. Many intersex people have requested that TRAs stop doing so as they feel their biological makeup is irrelevant to the debate and they resent being used to further a cause they do not believe in. The vast, vast majority of intersex people are not transgender. Anyone who continues to treat the two states as linked is being deliberately obtuse, rude and lacking in empathy.