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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel Dolezal, race, and gender

145 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/02/2017 11:50

Dolezal has written a book about her experiences in which she argues that if people can identify as a different gender, they should also legitimately be able to identify as a different race. Interesting piece in today's Grauniad

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel?CMP=share_btn_tw

OP posts:
Gwenhwyfar · 03/03/2017 07:08

A black parent and a white parent doesn't always produce a baby half of each their colour. They could take after one more than the other. We've all seen those twins where one seems black and the other seems white.

edition.cnn.com/2015/03/03/living/feat-black-white-twins/

BarrackerBarma · 03/03/2017 11:18

I don't think it's useful attempting melanin maths. Colour of skin doesn't follow paint mixing rules, and people aren't perfect fractions of one race mixed with another. We are all mixed race. We can't assess percentages or proportions within a person and it's awfully dodgy to categorise based on skin colour.

Race is a spectrum.

quencher · 03/03/2017 11:49

I saw a quote on this that someone posted. it's similar to what I had mentioned on this thread because of intersectionality was brought into the debate.
With comments about black women and the LGBT, especially trans sticking together.
This person explains his part better than I could because it's from his own perspective and his experience.

He also, goes on to explain how he sees the black women he admires. What I like about this is that it gives an outside narrative about black women on what would have been seen as negative from the feminist perspective. I really think it's an interesting narrative.

Before clicking the link, there are two or three swear words.
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.philadelphiaprintworks.com/blogs/news/give-much-respect-due-how-female-rappers-inspire-black-queer-boys" target="_blank">https://www.philadelphiaprintworks.com/blogs/news/give-much-respect-due-how-female-rappers-inspire-black-queer-boys

The gist of it bellow.
They tell me all I ever do is listen to female rappers. They assure me they don’t think that’s a bad thing. They ask me why that is, and I explain how much I admire not only their lyrical delivery and dramatized personas, but I also love their performances of gender. I adore the way they help me, in some strange and almost inexplicable way, navigate my own relationship to the gender I was socialized into. I enjoy the way their gender within hip-hop, within their songs and lyrics, within their aesthetics, is politicized -- because it is something I am familiar with, and didn’t know how to express until I found them. My relationality to gender has always been one of having identities and labels ascribed to me, with terms and assumptions projected onto my body, and I saw pieces of that in the Black women who inspired me through their music.

Women who rap, much like queer Black boys, manage to be both hypervisible and invisible at the same time; our bodies are sexualized before we have the choice to do it ourselves, and when we do own our own overt sexuality we are called conceited.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/03/2017 13:03

I remembered an article where a mixed race woman grew up believing she was white. However, her belief was not a decision made by her self but more about the lies her family created around her

That was really interesting. I wonder if the lies would have been more palatable if both her parents were 'white' (white skinned)? I can't help thinking of the Canadian doco 'Stories We Tell'.

But it also confuses race (skin colour) and culture for me. What do white and black mean here? Clearly her skin colour is black / mixed and it is clear that lies were told about this - but what does discovering her blackness mean? Is this about embracing skin colour or something else? And, if her skin was whiter, but she had the same parentage, would this be an issue in the same way?

quencher · 04/03/2017 00:05

@yetanotherspartacus
I know what you mean.
sometimes until someone points it to you. Skin colour does not matter. I also, think part of it is do with growing up and understanding the world better compared to when you are a child. The penny always drops when you start to notice and understand that people treat you differently.
That seems to be in the two cases with the two women. It was more about finding themselves and whether they should have behaved and acted differently (that's what came across with the half Jewish woman more).

What is interesting is that in both cases they were half black. However, they saw being black as what they should be and it's a life they missed out on. Whatever that is.
To me, it comes across as people who have stereotypes of what black people should be like and not knowing what to do. Combined with family drama of missing birth fathers in the picture and having someone else to bring them up as their own without knowing.
The bottom line is they wanted to find themselves in a similar way someone might, if they found out they were adopted. ( am not saying all adopted people do this)

Gwenhwyfar · 04/03/2017 00:39

"Race is a spectrum."

You could argue that masculinity and femininity are on a spectrum (though not male and female I suppose).

BarrackerBarma · 04/03/2017 00:51

Some one on MN described gender as more like a scattergraph than a spectrum which was a genius insight.

Think about how anyone would plot themselves if it was just a continuum with ubermasculine at one end and uberfeminine at the other.

Likes ballet.
has hairy legs
uses power tools
hates cooking
logical
empathetic
assertive
Shy

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/03/2017 09:30

What is interesting is that in both cases they were half black. However, they saw being black as what they should be and it's a life they missed out on. Whatever that is

Thanks for your reply. That's (the above) what I don't get. I do get it in the case of Jewish culture, (I think), because there are definable cultures there (I didn't read that article - I must try to find it). I'd also get it if someone discovered that their father / mother / more distant heritage was Senegalese or Eritrean, or whatever, but the idea of 'black' culture (unless we are talking about diaspora communities in the UK or US or wherever) is completely beyond me.

FWIW I had a similar experience, but my skin is white, so I feel somewhat excluded from that part of me.

Gwenhwyfar · 04/03/2017 19:08

" but the idea of 'black' culture (unless we are talking about diaspora communities in the UK or US or wherever) is completely beyond me. "

It's one of the arguments made against white parents adopting black children. Some argue that it takes the children away from their culture, but a baby takes on the culture of the parents who bring it up.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/03/2017 00:15

Yes - I do see that, but my point is more about 'what is 'black' culture?' Or, for that matter what is 'white' culture? Even if we were to talk about 'cultures' it still does not make sense (unless in a diaspora kind of way) to talk about culture as being tied to skin colour.

kua · 05/03/2017 00:42

Yet I have also pondered about this. I spent the majority of my early years in another country. I am Caucasian and was a minority. The culture of the country I grew up in was also mine but I knew I had another as I was aware that I had my parents culture( Uk) too. However , that could also be said for the other half of my classmates who were also second gen from Japan, Korea ,Vietnam etc

kua · 05/03/2017 00:57

That said I would never said that I was as I'm clearly a caucasian and people would look at me as if I'm mad.

That said, I see my second gen friends here in the UK as Scottish/Welsh etc

Barcoo2 · 05/03/2017 08:05

I've discussed Australian Aboriginal identity issues on here recently - some of you may remember.

I remember reading that technically non-Aboriginal kids brought up by Aboriginal relatives are considered to be Aboriginal. This outrages the right wing media nasties who think it is people pretending to have black privilege for jobs or whatever. Not that there are many jobs. But here skin colour is not a determiner of disadvantage (even if intersectional feminists have tried to transplant American Everyday Feminism 'theories' onto the situation here)...

So it's quite a complicated issue. Racial identity can vary considerably around the world.

quencher · 05/03/2017 15:01

That's (the above) what I don't get. I do get it in the case of Jewish culture, (I think), because there are definable cultures there. I think with the Jewish culture thing is arguable too. I would take for example drake. In his life he was brought up Jewish by his mother. Did everything a Jewish person would do. However, I have heard people argue and asked why he is trying to be Jewish. It's not something he chose. It's part of his life.

but the idea of 'black' culture (unless we are talking about diaspora communities in the UK or US or wherever) is completely beyond me completely agree. There is no such thing. If I was to get a Nigerian child to be placed with a black family. The black family turns out to be that of Jamaican one. The only relatable thing between the two is race.
What I could say probably is that, the only thing that child will gain from that family is probably how to deal with racial issues and talking to someone who understands what you are talking about.
Culture as general term for black. There is no such thing. Am with Qwen too.

To be honest, most of the time when I hear of black culture, it is usually in a racist way or as a form of segregating black people by stating the negative. Sometimes, it comes off as an excuse for why people can be racist and why black people are that way in General. (It's their culture init! That's why they are like that).

I also, think that because most of the slaves where striped of there culture, anything that stems out of the black community especially in America becomes the culture.
A Sudanese person sitting across from a South African are so different that the only thing they share is the skin tone. It's like having a Chinese person sitting a cross from German who have never been anywhere else part from their country origin.

If I think very hard. The shared thing that could be seen as cultural in the uk and America.
Black Salons /hairshops. It's a completely different feeling to your salon down the road ones. The equipments and conversations are different too. The people are more straight forward and probing. An older black woman can demand to be referred to as auntie. The way it's managed can be unusual to how most are or the booking styles because of unpredictability of hairstyles. (The same applies to barbershops)
Barbershops . I read somewhere that black barbershops is where most black men get talk about politics or hear different views and what's going on. It's the mutual ground for young black men. Ideas are shared and it's usually part of the community.
Religion ( in the uk you have a large number of those who are religious under Christianity or Islam. You also, have most of them under the Pentecostal/born gain Christian types?
In America, it's mostly under the baptist/born again/ Pentecostal/and nation of slam which is partly Islam and a movement in itself. Religion in America is part of the black culture in itself.
Hairstyles, haircare, and bodycare, that specifically can be seen as black and how to look after it.

In regards to the uk religions among black people. The more likely group to join the Pentecostal /born again Christians are mostly Immigrants or children of those who have recently immigrated. They tend to also, focus more on demons and prosperity as the focus of prayer. Plus paying ten percent of your income to gain ten fold.

Those are the few I can think of at the top of my head.

quencher · 05/03/2017 15:37

@barcoo2 I do remember your thread and it was eye opener for me. What you did post made sense as part of understanding intersectionality for those in the middle ground that are also ignored but at the same time people claim they have white privilege.
The gist of what I got from your other post is that the racist only see black or white and not the spectrum of where skin colour fell. Those with any identifiers that are noticeable are discriminated against together with those who have the law to protect them.

BonnyScotland · 05/03/2017 15:53

She DENIED her white parents... and created a fictional black father....

she's a calculated Liar ... not interesting at all

Gwenhwyfar · 05/03/2017 18:41

"most of the time when I hear of black culture, it is usually in a racist way or as a form of segregating black people by stating the negative. "

Apart from David Starkey, I think I've only ever heard it from black activists such as the ones who oppose black children being adopted by white parents. As I've mentioned above, I don't understand it because culture comes from your upbringing.

I suppose that 'black culture' can just be a name used for a certain national or regional culture so that in the US it might mean African-American and in the UK Afro-Caribbean or African.

Barcoo2 · 05/03/2017 22:49

Yes quencher it seems like race is defined by the colonisers in Australia, and (most) Aboriginal people (or the southerners, at any rate), push against this definition because there was a whole language around what percentage Aboriginal you were, quatroon and so forth. I'm not sure if the government actually recorded people by these terms but I think they did. It makes sense if Aboriginal people completely reject any labels which decree the proportion of your Aboriginality, as it was kind of a measure of the effectiveness of genocide.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/03/2017 23:56

Quencher - I think that 'black culture' is sometimes fetishised, particularly those elements of it that are associated with youth, music, 'the hood', etc. Maybe this is reflected in your quote about rap, above? I wasn't aware of the salons / barbershops. I've seen them, just not paid much attention to them. I still don't understand the term really, though, nor why someone raised 'white' (whatever that means) might want to explore these elements of culture as if they were somehow intrinsically linked to their skin colour. I do get the hair element, because that's practical, but not the rest. I also get a desire to know one's family and one's roots, including the cultural elements of these (i.e. who were my great-great's and how did they live).

I have read of young people wanting to be black or pretending to be black in order to feel more connected to rap / hop-hop, gangs, etc. A quick internet search reveals the term 'wigger', although not the article I read a few years ago (which was about white-skinned young people in London from memory).

I guess Jewishness makes more sense to me because there is a definable cultural essence there that 'Jewishness' can be pinned to and that is practiced by even diaspora communities across the world. I find the black Jews of Cochin and Calcutta interesting and the Beni Isrealites of Bombay / Mumbai.

terrylene · 28/03/2017 19:42

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08l2q4l

Did anyone see her on Newsnight? The discussion afterwards was interesting.

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