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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel Dolezal, race, and gender

145 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/02/2017 11:50

Dolezal has written a book about her experiences in which she argues that if people can identify as a different gender, they should also legitimately be able to identify as a different race. Interesting piece in today's Grauniad

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel?CMP=share_btn_tw

OP posts:
NotYoda · 26/02/2017 19:18

... this whole board is new to me. Recently tried to discuss transactivism with friends and it went down quite badly.

Fauchelevent · 26/02/2017 19:21

notyoda well, welcome. You're certainly not alone in having only MN to come and let out frustrations on transactivism.

My entire feminist circle off mn is very into transactivist intersectional feminism.

venusinscorpio · 26/02/2017 19:22

I hate hate hate that smug meme.

Feminism that isn't actually about women is bullshit.

NotYoda · 26/02/2017 19:23

.. my circle isn't very feminist. Not really.

Notwhatiexpected · 26/02/2017 19:26

Ach, it's a crop of nonsense. Cultural appropriation, bad bad bad, racist, yuk, check your privilege etc. Gender appropriation, wow give her the prize for being the best of all the women, because by being he then she they have "expanded" the notion of what a woman is. How brave. And it's definitely not offensive, not like blackface.

My eyeballs are rolling so hard right now.

Fauchelevent · 26/02/2017 19:43

venus its smug cos a lot of it is virtue signalling, I've often said how McCarthyist current intersectional feminism is. Mostly those people posting the slogan aren't trans (because they don't have to virtue signal). It's actually young girls and women who embrace cis, and even being called oppressive cis scum, because of the repercussions of letting go even slightly of the trans narrative. If you're not repeating it over and over with your eyes tightly shut the whole thing falls apart because it really really doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

teaspoonsofjoy · 26/02/2017 20:23

Fauch that was such an interesting post - thank you. All of the feminists of colour that I know are very inclusive of trans women and are pro sex work and I have so many questions that I don't feel able to ask. There has been a lot of quite disparaging comments about white feminism in my world recently (which I accept is both a thing and problematic) but most of these comments have come from men (both white and of colour) which I have found both confusing and upsetting. I didn't know what intersectional feminism was until recently but my activism and work has always been with marginalised groups of women additional problems, discrimination and inequalities to those of middle class white women. I don't know if that makes me an intersectional feminist though, as I think the intersection of trans rights and women's rights is too problematic and I know too much about sex work to be 'pro' anything around that. I feel very confused at the moment about everything but your post was very helpful.

quencher · 26/02/2017 20:56

@fauchelevent yes! That whole post was shocking but the last bit took the biscuit.

I love your last post, but, there is a big but, I disagree with half of it. Sort of any way. It will take explaining. Am glad that you posted it because it would fit here and not on the trans or intersectional thread a lone.

It definitely gave me food for thought for the last hour or two. Thanks for that ! Grin

quencher · 26/02/2017 23:31

I like Kimberley Crenshaw's advocacy for black women. She stands for black women and sees it in the same way I do. It's also, a way that is lucking on Mn because most people see sexism from one angle, male vs female in a patriarchal society. Her intersectionality is a good way to understand how black women are treated in society. The injustices, how issues are dealt with and treated and misogynoir both in the media and daily life.

The other thing that I find lucking on Mn is the understanding between black women and gay, especially those who identify as trans. Or they are trans but do not state that they are. I think most complaints for American intersectionality encouraging groups pushing this forward mostly led by black women and trans hand in hand.
What I will say is that what white women, especially British do not understand is the symbiosis between black women and trans black men. Am going to base this on my observation of Americans and their culture and how it works.

Firstly, I think black women are more accepting of trans women because they are not protecting the female space. They are trying to gain it. Both groups want acknowledgement into being accepted. Not just in bathrooms and sports, the media or any other space that black women are denied or their achievements are down played to physical strength, or whatever excuse people can come up with rather than being clever at it or using technical skills that requires brain work.

Recently, a debate took place on #blacktwitter. One was regarding Kim Burrell. What Came out of the Kim argument for her homophobia was the fact that the American black churches are run by two groups. Black women and gays/trans together. Those who can hide being gay can preach on the pulpit. If not, they are segregated to the choir and the running of the church. There is a bond that is created between these two groups. They see what each goes through. I sometimes think, it's a lot easier for a trans persons identifying as trans within the black community than if they were just gay.
However, they suffer more in terms of getting work compared to their gay counterparts. (Both suffer rejection in general in terms of acceptance within the black community and not denying that they don't)

Intersectionality groups that support sex work, my gut feeling is that is for the support of the black trans groups or trans groups in general. If they cannot work a long side black women, ( as hair dressers, makeup artist, those who become dragacts, or are Into to entertainment, These are those who have fully embraced dressing in female cloths or had sex changes) they are left jobless in most cases. What I have heard is that a lot of them are into sex work as a way of survival. So, I can see how they would try and protect sex work and try to justify it, when they have nothing else. The problem is, it's probably something that people are scared to talk about. I don't know if they know and understand they detrimental effect that sex work has on women in general.

What I would, also, say is that black women borrow from trans/gay men in entertainment. It's undeniable what their influence is but to the outside world it's virtually not seen. In most cases when a trend is created by black people, it's more than likely it was started of in the gay especially trans underground first. From phrases to dance moves geared towards women. The black trans males appears in lots of major music videos by black females singers all the time and it's accepted and not questioned.

There is another debate that probably most people would not have thought of. That is the Tyler Perry's madea generation. Most white people in America and especially Europe would not have heard of him and her. (Same person) it's a big deal within the black community. It's shows the acceptance people have for her. Madea is the matriarch who is recognisable within black American extend families. ( children, aunts, uncles, second, third cousins, mums and dads at family reunions or big house hold with only the grandmother as the carer) His character is trans, but at the same time is not pretending to be a woman like matin Lawrence or Mrs doubtfire. He is acting the female role as a woman not trans being being a woman. People love it and people don't see anything wrong with it. It's never questioned but enjoyed. I think there is two personalities that come through. That of a trans woman and of black woman. Both are embraced and enjoyed.

The only time I have heard Tyler Perry being criticised was for using the pain of black women for his own male patriarchal gain. One of the reason was, if madea was played by a black woman to tell the story of black women, people would not have found it that funny. He some times or in most cases, tackle issues that affects black families and it's not racism or slavery but normal everyday black American life from the point view of woman, written, produced and acted by a man. Confused

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 00:18

What I have heard is that a lot of them are into sex work as a way of survival. So, I can see how they would try and protect sex work and try to justify it, when they have nothing else.

I know what you mean and it is literally the only thing that makes me pause for thought.

Fauchelevent · 27/02/2017 04:02

@quencher amazing and thoughtful post. Can't reply just yet but i will

teaspoonsofjoy · 27/02/2017 07:41

quencher that was brilliant, thank you.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 27/02/2017 08:37

Interesting thread. I once debated trans with a man who was black British. He claimed that trans was a good thing because it muddied identity and women had always been oppressed as women. Thus, letting others in the club would destabilise the target as it were. This man had written extensively on race from what boils down to, I think, a PoMo position where he 'queered race', arguing that because it was a construct it needed to be destabilised. At the same time, I think he also argued there was a paradox in needing to keep racial identities because these were currently socially and politically relevant and also spoke to a history of oppression. We had a long debate and although my personal history is mixed I have never identified as anything but white, so I listened and learned. But I was utterly opposed to what he had to say about sex, gender and trans. I did find it interesting that he was adamant that 'black' was about skin colour and not 'race' and that for many black-skinned people their ethnic identity is also muddied, courtesy of colonialism and slavery. At the end of the day, he wanted race to 'go away' and I wanted biological sex to be more recognised as important (when relevant) and for gender to 'go away'. Apologies for not being able to quite represent nuanced positions in a short post and I hope I have not trivialised or misrepresented our positions too much!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 27/02/2017 08:52

Ugh. First addendum. My friend didn't identify as black british so much as give a nod to this identity category because it was the most appropriate of ones that are usually given on official forms to choose from.

teaspoonsofjoy · 27/02/2017 09:40

I have gained more insight from this last couple of pages of posts than I have from anything that I have read/listened to in the last couple of years. I hugely appreciate people taking the time to post. quencher and fauch in particular, if you had time to share more of your thoughts I would be so grateful. I have thought about starting a thread about intersectionality before but didn't really know what I wanted to ask and didn't want to make demands on peoples' time. I really want to understand and learn more.

quencher · 27/02/2017 14:37

@yetanotherspartacus
Thus, letting others in the club would destabilise the target as it were. I don't think it would help sadly. It would be a good idea to destabilise the target but based on looking at the black gay/trans. It comes across as rejection from the male species that they are not good enough to be men who are comfortable in loving the opposite of ascribed gender roles dictated by straight men.

I did find it interesting that he was adamant that 'black' was about skin colour and not 'race' and that for many black-skinned people their ethnic identity is also muddied, courtesy of colonialism and slavery.
I completely agree with him on this point. To me "black" or Negra or similar English version is just a colour with with ascribed meaning from enslavers who wanted to give it meaning and reason to justify slavery. Black encompasses all the dark shades or pigments that we find in all different groups of dark skin people. Colour only has meaning if we give it that meaning. The only reason dark people have higher melanin is for protection from the sun based on the areas they, have and still live in. Under or close to the path of the sun on the equator with constantly hot sun rays.

It does not rocket science to see the difference in colour of black people once you start moving away from the equator, with the exception of slaves in the Americas and Europe and traveling moors or those who traveled with the romans. They are anomalies in the order of skin colour depending on which line of latitude and it's degrees you fall as a group of people.

The best ethnic identity that dark skin people can have especially in Africa is when it comes down to tribes. Grouping countries in Africa as an ethnic group is crazy and a lot of nonsense. The worst one is grouping the whole of dark skin people as one group that shares the same ascribed norms and beliefs is is even more bonkers.
Colonialism perpetuated current tribalism in African countries by creating governments where one tribe dominates the rest. Its only so, because they were either left in power on fought gorilla wars to follow a similar patent to their predecessors. We wonder why we have African dictators! The dictator is there to support his tribe and no one else. Worse, some don't even go that far.

At the end of the day, he wanted race to 'go away' and I wanted biological sex to be more recognised as important (when relevant) and for gender to 'go away'. That's interesting. In today's debate that would go against the trans groups pushing forward for equal rights as women. Unless, the meaning of biological sex is changed to include other things.
I would love for race and gender to go away too. Smile especially, what makes a race and one of them being the identifiable "colours" loaded with meaning. they are the bane of my existence as a human being, being both female and black. Having a neutral ground of which we stand is the utopia for we who fight for our rights.

We would be left with people who are seen as humans. Not by what their colour or gender means to us, which at the moment they are not ideals but limiting factors to what they can do or achieve.

quencher · 27/02/2017 22:44

I remembered an article where a mixed race woman grew up believing she was white. However, her belief was not a decision made by her self but more about the lies her family created around her.
It also, comes across as the one similar to mixed race black and Jewish woman's documentary that was on Netflix. (Family too, never discussed her race or colour or why she looked different to the rest of the family. The question was always from other people).
The difference between those two and RD is that one decided to be black while the other two where oblivious to being black. It's actually, people that probed them to find out about their heritage and telling them why they can't be white. They both lived in a bubble and there was no need for them to question who they were until the big bad world comes knocking for their race and identity.

xonecole.com/parents-made-think-white-whole-life-now-im-reclaiming-blackness/

Peaceloving · 27/02/2017 22:57

The race as the gender argument is just a way of divide humans according to economic gain. There is only one race the Human Race, there is no Gender only Stereotypes to control humans.
This gender identity ideology cannot get into law and take away women rights. There is a petition to stop it.

www.citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/41304-say-not-dangerous-gender-identity-bill?m=5&tcid=33078820

See also www.transgendertrend.com/gender-identity-rights-of-the-child/

DeviTheGaelet · 28/02/2017 07:45

peace I think there is a difference between race and gender.
Race has no impact on the innate ability of people of different races (except possibly when it comes to avoiding sunburn!!Grin) and the perception of difference in capability/desirability between different races is entirely socially constructed. There is no reason at all to segregate people based on colour.
There are differences in ability/capability (not sure what to call it) based on sex. Women are smaller and weaker than men, hence sex segregated sport. Women are also able to get pregnant and pregnancy/childbirth/breastfeeding makes women vulnerable and more dependent on those around them. These are biological differences.
Sociologically men are far more likely than women to have a sexual fetish e.g. voyeurism or flashing. They are also far, far more likely to attack others and sexually assault/rape others. That's why we have sex segregation where women are vulnerable.
I have seen some extremely TRAs argue that the desire for "safe spaces" for women is equivalent to race segregation/apartheid. It gives me the absolute rage Angry

ChocChocPorridge · 28/02/2017 08:00

The other difference being that of course race actually is a spectrum - races are contiguous not discrete. They may have looked discrete a couple of hundred years ago, but that was purely due to physical separation.

Where as sex is binary - if someone with black skin has a child with someone with white skin, you get someone with skin somewhere between white and black. If a man has a child with a woman, you get a boy or a girl (intersex being a rare disorder)

YetAnotherSpartacus · 28/02/2017 08:27

Devi - but what about if we use sex to refer to biology and gender to that which is socially constructed?

DeviTheGaelet · 28/02/2017 20:36

I kind of agree but I think a) most people these days just say gender and would find it confusing and b) actually being a woman is kind of an amalgamation of biological sex and socialisation/gender stereotypes.
I'd prefer to just use biological sex but we are miles away from that at the moment

YetAnotherSpartacus · 28/02/2017 22:50

Yes ... Although I do tend to go back to the old terminology out of habit. I meant, though, more in relation to 'race' as being somewhat like gender (but not sex)?

Thanks Quencher for your reply, which I will try to get to...

Gwenhwyfar · 02/03/2017 08:14

" if someone with black skin has a child with someone with white skin, you get someone with skin somewhere between white and black."

Not always.

ChocChocPorridge · 02/03/2017 09:44

" if someone with black skin has a child with someone with white skin, you get someone with skin somewhere between white and black."

Not always

In what way, not always - are you talking Albinism, or some other disorder?

Otherwise, yes, you get someone, somewhere on the continuum. If mum and dad were both mixed, then a child lighter or darker than either of them, but that child is still on the continuum - the child's skin colour is still on a spectrum, not a binary.