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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do so many men turn bad...?

418 replies

Destinysdaughter · 27/01/2017 18:44

Was just thinking about this, May be simplistic but was wondering why so many men end up being rapists, paedophiles, DV abusers, stalkers etc?

Is it something in their family background, being a victim of abuse themselves, conditioning, or something else?

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 07/02/2017 20:40

Jordan Petersen, a Canadian Professor known recently for being a freedom of speech advocate, and in no way inclined to support feminists, made a comment that men have a problem with women because "women can reject them"

Sorry, but I'm really not seeing any great pearls of wisdom in that statement. Parents reject children/ children reject parents etc.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 20:50

It's not wisdom it's just obvious. Most people don't like being rejected. And, as the saying goes, Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 07/02/2017 21:01

SGM button - absolutely.

YourOtherLeft · 07/02/2017 23:00

The aluminium structure of an airplane is extremely strong for its weight. Is it strong because of the innate qualities of the metal, or because of the structure that the people who built the airplane imposed upon it?

Well, the answer is, of course, both. Fortunately, we can easily find out how important each of the two elements is by trying different combinations of materials and different structures. We can test our various models to destruction, rip them apart and put them back together and go on to produce elegant computer models utilising fairly straightforward physical laws.

Many men have sexual thoughts throughout the day. Is this down to their genetically determined sex drive or their social conditioning? Again, the answer is, of course, both. However, unlike an aluminium airplane we cannot pull apart the human psyche or swap human genes around to figure out how each factor impacts upon the final set of behaviours. There is no elegant computer simulation of the human body and mind.

Truth is, we may never know how big a role our genes have on any specific part of our behaviour because the experiments needed to find that out would be intolerably cruel and dangerous. Twin studies go quite a long way to helping, but there's always going to be a problem of possibly flawed methodology that bars us from true understanding. Inferring a link is fundamentally different from observing the process in action.

I'll use Climate Change as an analogy. Everything we know about Carbon Dioxide and how it works in the atmosphere says that it should cause global warming if present in the atmosphere in large amounts. For it to be the case that human-made climate change is NOT happening, it would require a process that goes against our direct observations as to how gas and sunlight work together. Climate change denial pitches inferred knowledge based on an indirect observation of climate behaviour against observed knowledge of the processes taking place within our climate and gives the inferred knowledge primacy.

We know that socialisation impacts upon sexual behaviour. For social influence to have minimal impact upon male sexual thoughts and behaviour would require a process that runs counter to what we have already directly observed. To claim men thinking about sex all the time is all (or even mostly) because of male biology is to give inferred knowledge primacy over observed knowledge. However, to rule out genes as a factor is to do the same because we know that genes do influence our sexuality... we just don't really know how. It's quite possible that the genes that encourage men to have lots of sexual thoughts exist in women too, but in men they are encouraged and in women they are suppressed. Our best scientific understanding of human behaviour tells us nature and nurture work together to make us who we are. However, it is very, very hard to pin down the role of gender in the "nature" aspect of our selves.

Anyway, irrespective of whether its male genes or human genes that influence male sexual behaviour we definitely do know that social influence is an important factor. So, we must always take social pressures and social learning into account when understanding human interactions. In a society where there is a significant societal difference between male and female sexuality, there is no general or universal model we can use in which we can swap "man" with "woman" and come up with the same answer to "what is really going on here?". The experiences of a male prostitute do not tell us anything meaningful about the experiences of female prostitutes. It is not an equivalent situation because society treats men and women differently when it comes to sex. That's not to say that male prostitutes can't be exploited or that certain women prostitutes can't have consensual sex. It's just that consent is not the same for men as it is for women, so it's wrong to use the process that applies to men as a basis for understand the process that applies for women. Basically, the life of a man does not make a good scientific model for understanding the life of a woman.

And that's the problem, really. We, as a society, have established that men and women are equal in a theoretical sense. However, in the real world, society does not yet treat men and women as equal. MRAs argue from the theoretical position, feminists argue from the real-world position. MRAs swap "woman" and "man" around in their ethical propositions as though it makes no difference, but you can't actually swap any specific man and any specific woman round in any specific real-world situation and expect to get the same outcome.

MRAs use the model that gives them the answer they want. Feminists need a model that reflects reality, because seeking an accurate understanding of reality is the only area in which feminism has an advantage over the MRAs in their fight for equality. It is no coincidence that both Trump and Putin are doing their absolute best to distort how we view reality. You can't use an understanding of reality as a weapon if reality is hidden away from everyone's view.

BLM2017 · 07/02/2017 23:05

This is such an interesting thread, I'm wondering if being racist for example is by conditioning or by DNA. Just a thought as if you look at racism carried out by predominantly European people over the last couple of hundred years I wonder if that is genetic of conditioning. Not trying to derail thread just wondering what people think

HelenDenver · 07/02/2017 23:08

Good post, YOL (or should I say Right?!)

BLM, I think that's social conditioning or at least, as YOL says, social conditioning is the only variable we can adjust.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 23:09

Very interesting and thought provoking post!

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 23:39

You talk about reality though. The reality is I desperately hope my new baby is a girl and not a boy.
Why ?
Because she
Will be cosetted and looked after by a chivalrous society
She's likely to do better at school
Shes more likely go to and graduate from university. She will live in a society that strives to enable her to do whatever she wants weather she wants it or not
Shes less likely than a man to suffer a violent attack yet there are far more movements in place to protect her than men.
She can chose to be an academic a stay at home mum, a bimbo moll, a career woman or whatever she wants. All are equally acceptable.
In short she can use her sex appeal or her brains
If she wants to do traditionally male STEM subjects she will be encouraged and incentivised at the expense of men both financially and with a lower grade requirements.
She will have a safe-space and always believed culture to grow up in weather she needs it or not.
She will be entitled to decide weather the sex she had last night was consensual or not after the fact weather it actually was or not
Up to age 40 or the time she decides to have children she will earn more than equivalent males do.
If theres a war she won't be required to fight it.
If theres a custody battle for her children she will win it
If her marriage breaks down she won't lose her home either.
Her risk of dying from cancers like cervical or breast is massively less and far more screened and investigated than cancers like testicular and prostate.
Shes 5 times less likely to comit suicide.
She will always know she is the parent of her children.
I could go on and on
I pitty any working class boys born today, he's in for a torrid time and can't even look forward to a so-called top job later in life.
I really hope she's a girl and not just so I can buy her cute clothes and go shopping with her when she's older.

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/02/2017 23:56

YourOtherLeft that's a really useful and interesting post. It helps to crystallise the discomfort caused by the way Trump behaves.

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 00:01

Trump is a scary scary arse hole but we live in a society that's so discontented that around half the voters think he's a viable option! Need to stop the in-fighting and agree a way forward that's inclusive and equal! Not feminist! Equal!

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 00:19

Your other your posts is the most objective and well considered one I have seen on this issue. You may be on the verge of changing my opinion. Why do you say consent is not the same for women as it is for men?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 08/02/2017 00:57

That's not to say that male prostitutes can't be exploited or that certain women prostitutes can't have consensual sex

I am uncomfortable with this statement.
I can see no worthwhile distinction to be made between male and female prostitution beyond that adult male prostitutes may be capable of defending themselves in a physical attack.

On the issue of consent , a desperate teenager of either consent isn't consenting.

Buying any body for sexual gratification is simply wrong. It's not less wrong just because certain individuals of either sex appear not to be affected by it.

AntiSocialInjusticePacifist · 08/02/2017 03:25

YourOtherLeft you do a fantastic job of illustrating the difficulties of studying certain subjects like genetics vs socialisation, and how it is very difficult to speak with certainty on such matters. Although I understand that it is pretty well established that environment can trigger certain genes, as well as define how the brain develops.

Where you have lost me is: MRAs argue from the theoretical position, feminists argue from the real-world position. It reads very much to me like you are poisoning the well that MRAs only have theory, wheras feminism operates in the real-world. I could swallow the notion that MRAs are a relatively new group, and as such lacks the well over a hundred years of analysis, activism, and academic acceptance that feminism has achieved, but I think a portion of what some MRAs say is very much grounded in real world observation. With time and polish they may well contribute something of value to the conversation.

MRAs swap "woman" and "man" around in their ethical propositions as though it makes no difference, but you can't actually swap any specific man and any specific woman round in any specific real-world situation and expect to get the same outcome. I am not sure quite what you mean here, can you please give any examples?

MRAs use the model that gives them the answer they want. Feminists need a model that reflects reality, because seeking an accurate understanding of reality is the only area in which feminism has an advantage over the MRAs in their fight for equality. It is no coincidence that both Trump and Putin are doing their absolute best to distort how we view reality. You can't use an understanding of reality as a weapon if reality is hidden away from everyone's view. Again this looks a lot like poisoning the well again, where MRAs are the only ones capable of confirmation bias, whereas feminism by some unexplained agency is somehow as a default immune from such. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly re: Trump and Putin (and in fact almost all politicians for that matter), the issue is critical thinking is something that is not encouraged early enough, and certainly not to any significant degree. Few people, and even some very very clever people are not trained to think critically anymore.

Why Trump, Brexit et al, have started a thunderous steamroll over modern international culture is that we have all gotten rather lazy in our thinking. The liberal left, and progressives etc who had made massive advances in cultural dominance over the last several decades have ended up behaving rather akin to the religous right before them. Rather than win the argument in the open marketplace of ideas we see accusations of "racist", "misogynist" or even just plain old "you're stupid" thrown about with such casual abandon it has actually served to dilute the meanings of those words, so now we live in a time where some very unsavory characters are getting large platforms, and they are much harder to challenge.

Jmslvlc990 I read your very strange ideas about a sex class for men (because that is what you are ultimately advocating for), and I'm sorry that just sounds fucking horrific. I am a man, and also one with a fairly high libido, I recognise the unrelenting, constant and ever present desire you speak of (and I agree I don't think many women completely identify with and understand it), but when I go through a dry spell I just tie a fucking knot in it metaphorically speaking, and get on with my life. The secret is to defer gratification, meaning that when I find myself in a commited relationship again it all turns out ok, and also I don't objectify myself to a state of being a walking, talking set of cock and balls and precious little else. What makes the entire enterprise not only bearable but desirable is the choice to be something more than that...

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 06:30

AntiSocialJusticPacifist
That's a fantastic post. I agree with 90% of what you say.. Where (unsurprisingly) I disagree is in your summation "sex class for men"
I don't beleive I'm advocating that at all!
Im glad you are able to defer gratification and 'tie a not in it' until you are in your next comiitted relationship. But to use a drug analogy, that's a bit like saying to a heroine addict, don't have any more methadone just put up with your withdrawal symptoms.
I'm not talking about most men here. Most men aren't rapists. Most men don't need prostitutes to get sex. Again to use the drug analogy - you comparing your high libido to someone who is desperate for sex is a bit like someone who likes a drink comparing themselves to an alcoholic.
Just because you like a drink doesn't mean you understand what motivates an alcoholic

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 06:53

Lasswidelicatehair

"
Buying any body for sexual gratification is simply wrong. It's not less wrong just because certain individuals of either sex appear not to be affected by it."

Why is it wrong for one person to use their body sexually gratify another person for money?
What moral authority are you referring to when you say 'wrong?
If your looking at it from a religious point of view then I can't argue with you.
If your not then what makes it wrong?

What line gets crossed when the physical gratification offered goes from intense pleasure and satisfaction ( eg massage) to sexual pleasure and sexual satisfaction?

If it's wrong to exchange sex for money, is it also wrong to exchange sex for love? In the sense that you might not really want sex with someone but you love them and want them to be happy so you have sex. You may not find it as enjoyable as your partner did but the fact that you made your partner happy made you happy. Is that wrong too?

HelenDenver · 08/02/2017 07:26
RebelRogue · 08/02/2017 07:32

"If you loved me you'd have sex with me" oldest line in the book.

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 07:36

Interesting articles in Psychology Today
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201305/the-price-sex-women-rule-men-drool-the-markets-cruel

Women controll access to sex. Demand from men is higher than the supply. The price rises. Prostitutes devalue the market for other females so they want to abolish it.

IQ2 debate;

www.spectator.co.uk/2008/11/iq2-debate-its-wrong-to-pay-for-sex/

Is it wrong to pay for sex?
Most of the 700 audience thought not.

Jermaine Greer said; "Selling sex is better than selling your soul stacking shelves in Tesco"

RebelRogue · 08/02/2017 07:40

Women control(the lucky ones that actually get a say) access to their bodies. As they should.

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 07:43

Yes rebel - oldest trick in the book. Just like ;"Buy me that ring/dress/car and I'll give you a blowjob"

whoputthecatout · 08/02/2017 07:57

Sorry, but I can't get beyond Jms's point about men and their heads being full of a permanent desire to impregnate etc.

How on earth do these fuckers spare enough time to run the world as well?

HelenDenver · 08/02/2017 08:01

Would you like an SGM button, catsout?

Blocks out all that pesky cognitive dissonance packed nonsense.

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 08:02

All sex is essentially transactional. Why do (some) feminists want to restrict womens choices as to what gets exchanged in the transaction?
It's their own body they can do with it what they want. Not just what someone else says is acceptable based on an ideology most women don't identify with.

Jmslvlc990 · 08/02/2017 08:05

Whoputthecatout
Some men can't. It's just too intense (probably as nature intended)
But for the majority of modern men it's just practice!

whoputthecatout · 08/02/2017 08:27

Clearly men are the real multi-taskers then Jms.

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