Please help me to not hate men

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

I have a wonderful dad and husband. I have sons, and I love them all to pieces. But I do believe that I am starting to hate men. When I read about their abuse of women and children and animals as well, I really feel HATE!!

I don't want to hate them. I don't want to be anything like those god awful woman haters, those soulless losers who obsess over women and who are lost, probably forever. I am NOT like them, because I do feel love and like for the men in my life. Just no other man.

Any advice?

lessthan great post

Oh stop exaggerating Sillage .

If these demonstrators genuinely cared about all abused children why turn up and demonstrate at a conference about abused children?

I profoundly disagree with LessThan's post. To me that analysis just negates any concept of personal responsibility for one's actions.

lass I'm a bit unsure about what precisely happened at the conference. It was mentioned while the speaker was publicising a book about the taboo of female sexual abuse, 17 years after the conference. The only other references are on MRA sites. So actually we have no idea what the feminists were protesting about or if it was reasonable.
It is ridiculous it's derailed the thread to the extent it has.

So actually we have no idea what the feminists were protesting about or if it was reasonable

Indeed not. So even more reason for Sillage not to leap in with her statement that the demonstrators were correct. On the face value of the article they were demonstrating about the conference taking place.

"On the face value of the article they were demonstrating about the conference taking place."

On the face value of the provided quote they so very clearly weren't doing any such thing.

You fell for the intentionally anti-feminist twist & spin meant to whip you into a froth over nasty, nasty women and distract you from the epidemic of male violence wrecking our families, communities, and entire planet.

Isn't that for the police to handle. A man who commits a crime should be brought to justice not men.

Lessthan indeed feminism should be a class analysis, however the thread is about "hating men" as individuals. The point I was struggling to make was women and men make poor decisions that result in harm.

So a wider analysis points out the structural weaknesses of societies and the impact of patriarchy, but that can not be used to lessen personal responsibility.
We all make decisions based on our experiences but we have free will and can act individually to improve the life experiences of those around us.

Therefore it seems to me unfair to hate any group, men, women, feminists etc but it is perfectly reasonable to look at the actions of individuals and to dislike their actions, be they men or women.

Therefore it seems to me unfair to hate any group, men, women, feminists etc but it is perfectly reasonable to look at the actions of individuals and to dislike their actions, be they men or women

Agreed !

I'm a man, and fuck it if it helps knock yourselves out and hate us all. There are after all a tonne of women who manfestly don't hate men. Besides everyone should have the right of free assocation so that should be fundemental.

By the same token I don't think any man needs to stand there and take a faceful of abuse from feminists, but then again if he's daft enough to stand there that's his lookout. Interactions should always be voluntary.

Besides I think the rage isn't really designed to win hearts and minds, it's there as a visceral reaction to bad stuff going down for people. Having that rage there in all it's raw honesty tells people that certain shit is not ok and should not stand. For victims of various things that's a powerful thing.

So in short have at it, bitch about men all you want I'm happy to restrict my interactions to women who actually want to be around me. I'm not even going to piss about with arguments that I'd be much more sympathetic if only feminists were nicer, I'm from a school of thought of treating other people how I'd like to be treated. I'll still call out sexism when I see it that is not contingent on how mean you feel like being.

All I'll close with is that christ it must be exhausting and stressful to carry around that much negativity about another gender, so it might be worth some reflection if only for the sake of your own health.

"it must be exhausting and stressful to carry around that much negativity about another gender"

That explains why men parse out some of the dirty work of oppressing females (like slicing off little girls' clitorises) to women.

Objectively, the #1 cause of negative effects on women's health worldwide is male violence. Or, as some here would prefer the statistics individualized:

a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a boy
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a man
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a boy
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a man
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a boy
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a boy
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a man
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a woman raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a boy
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a man
a man raped a girl
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a woman
a man raped a girl

Oh ffs sillage, FGM is NOT caused by MEN making WOMEN do it.

It is a horrible hang on from the distant past dating back ages and it has nothing to do with men "oppressing" women and all to do with stupid "rituals" (which can be mainly traced to religious beliefs) which have been handed down generation to generation, which includes by women to women.

msanonymouse "Men commit more violent and sexual abuse while women tend to abuse emotionally and psychologically."

There is statistical evidence that men abuse with violence, and sexually abuse, and also emotionally ans psychologically.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/09/man-24-is-one-of-the-first-people-jailed-for-coercive-control-of/

safelives.org.uk/node/491

IMHO you won't really win an argument suggesting women do as much damage as men, in any sphere - because they do not.

But OP I totally know how you feel and why. I am choosing to blame the utterly shit unfair system of patriarchy for the war on women. I won't blame my adorable dh, who would not hurt a fly, or my six year old son.

But I will bring my son up to be a different kind of man to so many and my daughter to stand up for herself faster and stronger than I do!

Hating people is a choice sillage and if hating me for being a man helps you get through the day more power to you, and like I said knock yourself out. It's water off a duck's back as far as I am concerned, but hating me doesn't unmultilate anything, or unoppress anyone.

Again if facing the reality that the world is a dark, unforgiving and sadistic place at times leaves you with the rage, and being enraged at me and my ilk helps you get to a day where you can hack out a little corner of the world and make it fairer and nicer for you and yours more power to you. I suspect I won't be welcome there but I hope you find peace in it regardless.

As for my own little corner, it's a pretty basic treat me as you'd like me to treat you deal, and you are more than welcome in it whatever gender, race, creed, sexuality etc you happen to be. Peace out.

"the world is a dark, unforgiving and sadistic place"

The world is a thing and therefore neutral. It is men who act sadistically, and it is men who work in ways both great and small to avoid the first step of naming male-pattern violence for the global epidemic it is.

Tell us again how much you don't care.

Great post Lessthanaballpark.

badat www.unfpa.org/resources/female-genital-mutilation-fgm-frequently-asked-questions

"Why is FGM performed?

In every society in which it is practiced, female genital mutilation is a manifestation of deeply entrenched gender inequality. Where it is widely practiced, FGM is supported by both men and women, usually without question, and anyone that does not follow the norm may face condemnation, harassment and ostracism. It may be difficult for families to abandon the practice without support from the wider community. In fact, it is often practiced even when it is known to inflict harm upon girls because the perceived social benefits of the practice are deemed higher than its disadvantages.

The reasons given for practicing FGM fall generally into five categories:

Psychosexual reasons: FGM is carried out as a way to control women’s sexuality, which is sometimes said to be insatiable if parts of the genitalia, especially the clitoris, are not removed. It is thought to ensure virginity before marriage and fidelity afterward, and to increase male sexual pleasure. (who benefits from this?)

Sociological and cultural reasons: FGM is seen as part of a girl’s initiation into womanhood and as an intrinsic part of a community’s cultural heritage. Sometimes myths about female genitalia (e.g., that an uncut clitoris will grow to the size of a penis, or that FGM will enhance fertility or promote child survival) perpetuate the practice.

Hygiene and aesthetic reasons: In some communities, the external female genitalia are considered dirty and ugly and are removed, ostensibly to promote hygiene and aesthetic appeal. (Do you think the girls and mums are concerned for the aesthetic appeal?)

Religious reasons: Although FGM is not endorsed by either Islam or by Christianity, supposed religious doctrine is often used to justify the practice.

Socio-economic factors: In many communities, FGM is a prerequisite for marriage. Where women are largely dependent on men, economic necessity can be a major driver of the procedure. FGM sometimes is a prerequisite for the right to inherit. It may also be a major income source for practitioners."

(who benefits from this?) the vast majority of the 'benefit' (feel sick even using that word in this context) are males. The source of income for practitioners is for women. So some women are 'benefiting', but predominantly this appalling practice is fueled by misinformation, superstition and a massive fucking desire to control women by men (much like foot binding was).

' however the thread is about "hating men" as individuals.'

Did the Op say she hated men as individuals.

I totally get where I think the OP is coming from. If she is coming from teh same place as me it is not about hating men as individuals (how could she, who could she hate every man personally, she doesn't know every man personally!).

So assuming she is thinking as I am (correct me if wrong), she feels at times overwhelmed by the sheet truck load of shit that is landed on women by men in society. And this thread is a great example how people will talk about almost anything else rather than explore why some women would feel like that.

Sillage in general more men victimise violently and sexually. It is valid to note, understand and respond to this with feminist discussion and activism.

However, particular men and women in everyday life have to be judged according to their own choices and actions.

You do presumably agree that a female paedophile should be judged to be a bad human being? And that this judgment could be made by an individual man who is a good human being?

Hating people is a choice sillage

Toast or cereal for breakfast is a choice. Hating a group of people for their collective actions is literally something OP is asking for help not to do.

and if hating me for being a man helps you get through the day more power to you, and like I said knock yourself out. It's water off a duck's back as far as I am concerned,

Hey good for you, not caring and all. Not like its any skin off your teeth or anything

but hating me doesn't unmultilate anything, or unoppress anyone.

But instead of it being water off a ducks back, it "could" motivate you to try to understand why it's happening, and what you can do about it, and how you can help unoppress someone, instead of dismissing it as water off a ducks back, couldn't it?

Again if facing the reality that the world is a dark, unforgiving and sadistic place at times leaves you with the rage,

It leaves me with the rage for sure. Doesn't it leave you with the rage?

and being enraged at me and my ilk

"me and my ilk"

helps you get to a day where you can hack out a little corner of the world and make it fairer and nicer for you and yours more power to you.

Good lord.

If you having the rage at "me and my ilk" gets you closer to having a little corner of the world [that's] fairer and nicer for "you and yours" more power to you. I suspect I won't be welcome there but I hope you find peace in it regardless.

Honest to goodness were you thinking this was what the thread needed?

As for my own little corner, it's a pretty basic treat me as you'd like me to treat you deal, and you are more than welcome in it whatever gender, race, creed, sexuality etc you happen to be. Peace out. What is the pay gap in your corner? Does anyone abuse anyone in your corner? What are rape statistics like? What is media coverage like? Did a room full of women just sign a global gagging order on mens reproductive rights in your corner?

Excellent Points LuisCarol.

I call bullshit on the world being neutral. Mother nature is cruel, life on this planet is a constant struggle of competition, death and loss. With our species we have carved out (bloodily and violently at times I'll grant you!), civilizations of relative saftey.

Some sort of natural social harmony and equality has never been realised on this planet. You want to aim for one go for it, you will likely fail but you will undoubtedly make colossal advances for humanity in the attempt. That is usally the way of things.

However, where you and I inevitably part company philosophically is this "men as a class" nonsense. I shouldn't say nonsense really, because you are right, of course you are. However the problem comes where you want to create this secular form of an "original sin". Where I as a man by dint of my male privilege am heir to the sins of not only every man who visits an offence upon a woman or indeed every offence committed since the beginning of time. That's a bizarre position, and only the most neurotic of men, and potentially the least likely to be of any actualy threat to you will swallow it.

At least with the supersititious original sin, we just had Adam and Eve's sin to account for, and a decent life lived by the golden rule there was some sort of divine paradise promised at the end of it.

Arbitrary collections of people, and yes lumping in men as a class is an arbitrary distinction especially when it is a complete non sequitur to say that one man injures a woman, and I am somehow both tangibly benefitted in some way and somehow guilty that crime occured in the first place. Again, and as respectfully as possible I call bullshit on that.

Another area this class analysis falls flat is how this allows you to cherry pick. It has commonly been said how these rigorous gender roles have been structured to benefit men and this is no more apparent when we get to the subject of motherhood, prior to the Custody of Infants Act 1839 in cases of divorce custody usually went to the father (which would no doubt come as a massive shock to ill-educated MRAs), this was campaigned for quite successfully by a firebrand intellectual by the name of Caroline Norton (an absolutely formidable intellect and a very very interesting woman). Who also quite effectively campaigned for the Married Women's Property Act 1870 which of course was a watershed ruling on the road towards equality between the sexes. However the Custody of Infants act was the origin of the tender years doctrine that enshrined in law and made ironclad these gender role notions of women as primary caregivers. These ideas are all very out of fashion now, but oh no the idea was all men's fault and it benefited men and women are as pure as the driven snow.

One area of feminism I have all the time in the world for is an analysis of women's contribution to human civilization across the ages, as the contributions have been vast. In fact just looking back on great women through history it makes the case for you of how much better things could indeed be if power was shared more equally. However you cannot have it both ways you either have to accept the civilization we enjoy now has been shaped by women and exalt in that fact, or make it all about the men, and render invisible every great woman who has ever lived, because currently anything that doesn't fit the feminist zeitgiest and is labeled bad, and therefore benefits men and patriarchies in some vague and ephemeral way so you simultaneously lump us men with all the sin, and all the responsibility, even when in some cases you can trace an idea back to a female mind.

But it's ok I hear there is a neat rebuttal to my point there with the fantastic cry of "internalised misogyny", so even when a woman has an idea you don't like you can make it all men's fault regardless. Doubtless there have been far worse, but those two words do more to rob women of agency than you might realise.

Kudos on the implication of how little I care about women. Do I care about them along the precise same lines that you dicate I should? Almost certainly not, but I do. I went charging into an alleyway upon hearing a woman's scream, and saw off her attacker. I fucking wish I hadn't had to, I've been beaten up and actually stabbed once by a man so I by no means relish physical confrontations of any kind, and in fact one little thought I'll leave you with, is that if we men are all collectively responsible for male violence, and I am a victim of male violence myself, does that mean I as a victim are at fault? I suppose it's open season on victim blaming then!

All I can do is what any individual person can do in this world, and try and treat the people I come across as I would like to be treated myself. I fear anything of genuine value I may have said will be deflected off of a shield comprised of the accusation of mansplaining (and perhaps with some justification, this has been a stream of consciousness post I haven't edited, and I genuinely know very little about what I am talking about). In which case go back to hating me, and the world will continue to spin on it's axis as ever it has done.

Where I as a man by dint of my male privilege am heir to the sins of not only every man who visits an offence upon a woman or indeed every offence committed since the beginning of time.

It's late and I'm tired so, sorry, but I'm only going to zero in on this. Every time the pay gap is justified as being the result of a "lifestyle choice", every time you hear about owners of small businesses discussing whether to hire women of child bearing age, every time you see 9 men and 1 woman on CNN discussing the march of millions of women worldwide, every time you see men dismissing Trumps opinion of women as "just locker room talk", every time you read anything about "well, what was she wearing?", every time these things don't happen in front of you because you are a man, every time you feel ok about posting a stream of consciousness justifying your personal behaviour into a thread on a feminist board about trying not to hate men, you are that heir, yes.

"However the Custody of Infants act was the origin of the tender years doctrine that enshrined in law and made ironclad these gender role notions of women as primary caregivers."

Men's rights to children were not about being the primary carer, it was about being the legal owner! Just as men in days gone by have owned their wives, concubines and slaves.

Who do you think did the bulk of child's care before the Custody of Infants act?

The oppression of women most likely (as far as I can work out) goes back to when we stopped running after 'buffalo' (I believe, all of us) and stopped and settled and stayed in one place.

As far as I am aware before that women, men and children ran after the 'buffalo', killed it, ate it and moved on. Everyone had got to do everything because there was no benefit for the 'little lady' to be at home 50 miles from the 'buffalo' you had just killed. (I am using 'buffalo' in inverted commas because I am not sure exactly what animal was hunted!).

"Perhaps the strongest reinforcement of women's inferior status came with the growth of private property. In many societies, this signaled the end of collective ownership and with it, the matrilineal* clan system. Family, kinship and a host of other social ties were more and more linked to private property."

A HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF WOMEN’S OPPRESSION

"However you cannot have it both ways" How have women got it both ways?

"... you either have to accept the civilization we enjoy now has been shaped by women and exalt in that fact, or make it all about the men, and render invisible every great woman who has ever lived..."

Ah, I see, in that you've made up some arbitrary rules about how one could view the world. Thanks. But I think most women (and men) would feel that women have had some agency and have done some great things. However, our influence has been limited by the patriarchy. Not sure how you could have missed that one!

Well done for going to a woman's aid (I mean that most sincerely). And I am very sorry you were stabbed. By a man? By a woman?

"if we men are all collectively responsible for male violence"

I think you are getting a head of yourself here. Patriarchy as a system leads to the inequality. I would not hold you personally responsible for all male violence!

"I suppose it's open season on victim blaming then!" That's a straw man- or woman, - I've not blamed victims.

"All I can do is what any individual person can do in this world, and try and treat the people I come across as I would like to be treated myself." Ditto

" I genuinely know very little about what I am talking about). In which case go back to hating me, and the world will continue to spin on it's axis as ever it has done."

As said before it is not about hating individuals it is about feeling oppressed by the weight of injustice. I've not suffered at the hands of men, honestly, I have a nice life with a nice husband and I have a daughter and son. But I am aware that the way the world is generally disadvantages women and girls massively. So the hatred' I may feel personally, does not make me act in a hateful way and it is not directed at anyone. It would, for me, perhaps be better translated at massive exasperation."

Good night and thank you for engaging. Despite what some women would have you think feminists are not man haters, despite my feelings of 'hate', I agree with the OP "Please help me to not hate men"!!

anti

Yawn.

I fear anything of genuine value I may have said will be deflected off of a shield comprised of the accusation of mansplaining (and perhaps with some justification, this has been a stream of consciousness post I haven't edited, and I genuinely know very little about what I am talking about

If you fear being accused of mansplaining why do you think you would come onto a feminist forum and take up so much room with something that by your own admission you know very little about? Why do you think you have anything of value to contribute? What is it about you that makes you think it's ok to do this?

Why do posters want to leave us with "a little thought"

Someone the other day wanted to "plant seeds"

I wouldnt mind so much but they are never, never original thoughts. They are always fucking obvious thoughts

Its always a bit 'mic drop - end of arguement' type stuff