DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

[FarmerJiles]

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

I can see that exact same situation occurring again. Plus I find it quite reminiscent of this one.

"She probably thinks the same about you OP. You refer to the topic as "the trans thing", use "MtT" & "FtT", and mention that "boys wear skirts"in the school. It doesn't seem like you're going to be willing to look at your own beliefs but expect her to change hers. It's not a discussion you're after as that implies a 2 way thing."

Thing is Tiggy - i did look at both viewpoints. That's why i went from being a complete trans ally (i'd have thought all those here nasty closed minded bigots once) to gender critical and now worried about how current trans ideology is anti women and harful to kids.

*mercy

That first link was quite shocking. An openly sex obsessed fetishist, who despite being middle-aged identifies as a teenage girl, being allowed, quite legitimately to take a sauna with teenage girls. And they are in the wrong!

And I agree that the Paedophile Information Exchange was teetering on the brink of full legitimacy for some years.

But before anyone gets outraged. I am not saying that transwomen are paedophiles. Of course not.

But all paedophiles now have an opportunity that prior to this they were denied.

I have probably been sharing a bathroom with transwomen all my life, without a second thought.

Changing the law will ruin it for them too. I have zero doubt that the transactivists will go out of their way to push boundaries as far as they possibly can, whenever they can, because they can.

There will be a backlash. And genuine trans-people will get caught up in the crossfire.

I agree and I'm not saying trans people are paedophiles either Datun but the trans activist movement is justifying and advocating the transing of children which is child abuse. And the 'progressives' are supporting it - that was my point

The PIE ideas are coming back in. We had a thread in either AIBU or Chat a few months back where people were calling paedophilia a "sexual orientation" following a quite gob-smackingly indulgent article in Salon magazine where a guy who had not acted on his paedophilia but hung out with lots of men online who did whinged about being a victim of prejudice about his sexual preferences and it was like homophobia and said "he might as well have not bothered". That's a very dangerous road to go down.

Transactivists do not all think and do the same things in the same way feminists don't all think and do the same things. Some transactivists get very het up about the slightest things, others are trying to stop bullying in schools, hate crimes, stabbings and workplace discrimination.

We all know this, Tiggy. I haven't seen anybody dispute this. But it's the misogynistic, homophobic transactivists that are driving public policy and getting the laws changed to actively discriminate against natal women. And it would be nice if all the transactivists you state are active in "trying to stop bullying in schools" would put a bit of effort into trying to stop the other transactivists from bullying girls into accepting be-penised people in the girls' changing rooms, etc. And it would be nice if the transactivists you claim are trying to stop "stabbings" would say something about the other transactivists posing with knives and threatening women online for daring to have an opinion about gender oppression. I wonder why I don't hear them taking such a principled stand on this?

Oh, and on the PIE thing - what the hell is Stefonknee Wolscht except a celebrated transactivist who is normalising the sexualising of very young children? This is not a fringe activist, but someone who has a high profile, is thanked in parliament for their "contribution" to trans activism, and, uh, writes about anal sex with "daddy" while identifying as a six-year-old-girl. And who has "playdates" with real little girls. Stephonknee appears to have deleted their pinterest account (it might still be there, but I don't want to stink up my hard drive by googling too hard for it), but when I first looked at it, trying to find out what the deal with Stephonknee was, it was a nightmare mix of fetish porn and pictures of real little girls in party dresses.

And yes, Stephonknee is an outlier, and the transwomen I personally know and like are absolutely bloody incandescently furious that this asshole is being celebrated, but you just try being critical of Stephonknee in namespace, and watch the threats roll in to you for your terrible "transphobia".

Some do, to be fair, Annie. Miranda Yardley, A guy called Helen, this guy this guy

I nearly mentioned Miranda and Helen, Mercy, because we all do know and appreciate them. They've been getting a tide of shit directed their way, just as many of us have. But isn't it depressing that we can both name the same two transwomen who have really stuck their necks out to protect the rights of women, but struggle to name any more? And there are a tiny handful of other righteous transwomen emerging, but they aren't getting columns in Vice magazine, or being invited onto Women's Hour.

(And, Mercy, I very much doubt that Miranda and Helen were the transactivists Tiggy was applauding. But I suppose I could be wrong.)

No I agree but just wanted to mention them as they do get stick, although well able to defend themselves. Good point about women's hour. I would love to see Miranda on Loose women actually

There is a significantly larger percentage of autism in number of boys who transition

I believe this is also the case for girls. Perhaps it's larger in boys but girls and women with autism are under-diagnosed.

Interesting that a pp said cases of teenage girls with anorexia are decreasing and gender dysphoria increasing. Eating disorders are also linked with autism.

I believe this is also the case for girls. Perhaps it's larger in boys but girls and women with autism are under-diagnosed

Yes I believe I have read that too. Why is autism under diagnosed in girls?

I really wish the link with autism could be studied. I don't have any children with autism so I am not familiar with all the symptoms.

The 'not fitting in' aspect sounds applicable to trans. But I don't know what else.

Drum - girls are generally those gut to be much better at what's called masking than boys - basically acting out normal social interactions at school so they appear the same as other children but they pay for it when they're home because it's very hard work.

2 of the 2 MtT I know have autism.

jig

I wonder if autism is the key? I should imagine transactivists would want it minimised. But it would certainly explain why so many children are coming out as trans.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some cases of high-functioning autism involve people managing to cope by coming up with rule-based systems to help them navigate the social situations neurotypical people cope with instinctively? It strikes me that some of the messiest pieces of social interaction going - because it's so variable, and so many people "buck against it" - are the social interactions surrounding the construct of gender. Someone neurotypical whose personality doesn't quite fit society's gender boxes will simply say "fuck that for a game of soldiers" and happily break the rules. Whereas someone with autism, whose only anchor in a confusing world is an explicit set of rules to make sense of social interactions, when their personality doesn't fit the rules, may think "I need the other set of rules - the ones for people of the opposite biological sex."

If you are concerned about the Second Reading of the Gender Identity (Protected Characteristic) Bill 2016-2017 scheduled for 24 February 2017 and its impact upon young adults and children please refer to this website for a comprehensive overview and how best to respond to protect the rights of children and young people: www.transgendertrend.com/gender-identity-rights-of-the-child/

Exactly M0stly. They think they are being wrong footed because their role is wrong.

Although if that is the case and after transition they still feel wrong, wouldn't you see more detransitions?

There is most definitely some sort link with autism. I'm autistic and a member of a group on Facebook (mainly mid to late teens to late twenties) and there are so many that are trans. It is very concerning and whilst some will be genuine, I feel a lot are down to that they don't feel they fit in with other women or men so they feel they must be the other. I have some concerns that some get transgenderism as a special interest and get very wrapped up in it and convince themselves they must be transgender whilst reading up on everything around it. As for the detransitioning, I think a lot aren't quite at that stage yet, as in most seem to be relatively recent transitions (in the last couple of years) or they don't feel they can admit they aren't actually trans and have made a mistake. A lot of the online autistic community (as in among autistics rather than parents of autistics) is very very trans supportive and a lot get very aggressive at those who speak out against transgenderism. It doesn't help that a lot are of the age where tumblr is the main area they hang out on. I can see how they can get wrapped up in all the transgender stuff, it's the same as another autistic getting really caught up in say trains or world war 2, it's just a different topic that then leads to them getting influenced by it, whereas other interests aren't so influential and don't have a way out of something. There are so maybe examples in the group of people that don't feel they fit in because they fit the stereotypical view point so they feel they must be the other, and I think a lot comes down to the fact that autistic people don't really fit in anyway so they are trying to find somewhere to fit in and this transgender community seems to fit well enough at least at the start. Sorry that was quite long, hopefully it makes some sort of sense.

This all makes complete sense to me. My 18 yr old DD says she Is MtT. This announcement came just after the penny dropped that she may be autistic, which in turn explains her intense anxiety and depression. The set of rules thing makes sense, the obsessive interest makes sense, the wanting to fit in when you can no longer fit with your same sex peers makes sense. I also see it as a way to visibly express an invisible difference, and couple that with rigid thinking, a delayed emotional maturity, weak sense of self and lack of social awareness, top that with a lack of diagnosis because you are female and have been masking all your life you have the perfect combination.

I also see it as a way to visibly express an invisible difference

That gave me a jolt.

Yes I believe I have read that too. Why is autism under diagnosed in girls?

As a pp said, girls are thought to be better at "masking" their symptoms. They are better at copying social norms despite not properly understanding them. Autism was originally thought of (and still is by some) as an extreme "male brain". It was believed to be a male-only disorder. As a result it was overlooked in girls. Even now it is more understood that girls and women can be affected too, many people aren't aware it may present differently in females compared to males and the male type is seen as the norm.

Recently in the news it was revealed that many women who go in to have their children assessed for autism are discovering that they have it themselves.

If you have time, there is a video here that gives a bit of detail: www.channel4.com/news/girls-affected-by-autism

Here is an article that explores the link between autism and gender dysphoria:
spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/living-between-genders/

If you watch the channel 4 video, it struck me listening to the mother of one of the girl's talking about her child, how similar it was to things I have read/watched where parents discuss their child's gender dysphoria.

I also have ASD and supspect my DD does, so this topic is quite close to home for me.

I think the fact many girls are diagnosed at a much later age compared to boys, if they do get diagnosed, is another reason why many may latch on to gender dysphoria as an answer to explain the feeling of being different.

I did not learn about ASD until my early twenties. I wonder what may have happened if I had been a teen today. I certainly never felt like I fitted in, things that seem to come naturally to others just didn't for me.

The set of rules thing makes sense, the obsessive interest makes sense, the wanting to fit in when you can no longer fit with your same sex peers makes sense. I also see it as a way to visibly express an invisible difference, and couple that with rigid thinking, a delayed emotional maturity, weak sense of self and lack of social awareness, top that with a lack of diagnosis because you are female and have been masking all your life you have the perfect combination.

Yes this is a great summary. I'm sorry that your DD is suffering now.

Well we are tackling one thing at a time. Anxiety and depression first, autism assessment and getting to grips with that, and keeping her feeling safe and loved. If being transgender is the way she needs to live and she has made a mature and considered decision, then we will of course support her. I am just so scared of the affirmative no alternative approach.

People are making an awful lot of unsubstantiated statements here about unproven links. Almost like you think you've 'figured it out'. I can just hear the dinner table discussions spreading this stuff around.