DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

[FarmerJiles]

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

JJ
"unsubstantiated statements"?

Like what - that someone with a penis can be a female?

Why is a dinner table discussion worse than an online one, or a school corridor one?

Children hear about transgender issues online, from some seriously dodgy websites as well as anything more moderate. They hear about it at school, from classmates, some well informed, others not (it was news to my daughter that 'transing' didn't alter your chromosomes to be XY -- honestly, I wonder what planet she's on in science lessons sometimes).

By now, probably every secondary school in the country has at least one child who says they are transgender. DD's class has one. DS's sixth form has four. And at least two of those are, yes, on the autism spectrum.

So let's at least discuss a few 'unproven' statements about a higher chance of this in autistic youngsters, who by definition have social difficulties.

I don't have dinner table discussions but I have read a lot about gender dysphoria and a lot about autism.

This isn't speculation - Tony Attwood author of Asberger's Syndrome "bible" describes how some people with autism can switch to the other gender thinking they will fit in better. Crucially, he notes that they may change their mind after a couple of years when they realise this wasn't the solution. So doesn't fit with the "there is no cure/transition or suffer" approach, and also suggests extra care and caution needed in establishing whether hormones and/or surgery is the right medical treatment. And a lot more research is needed, so that treatment is evidence based.
See also here:
tonyattwood.com.au/about-aspergers/girls-and-women-who-have-aspergers

@Datun - apologies for my crappy misspelling of your name last night - I was posting from my phone in bed without my glasses on which it appears is something I'm no longer capable of doing. And those gut = thought.

Anyway, I think there is more than 'dinner table discussion' at play here. Tony Attwood has been quoted already but there have been a number of studies - one of which showed that people with autism are 7.59% more likely to identify as trans* than NT people. See here: www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/

The ncbi paper linked to within that article finds that ASD is ten times more likely in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria than in other children.
That's at least worth a dinner party conversation, surely.

Although apparently if you look at it through a non-critical gender lens, it is gender dysphoria that is causing the autism, and transitioning can cure it.

I've just written to my (useless) MP - thanks for the reminder/link user1487

From my 16 year old DS:

Hi, I'm 16 (almost 17) and am transsexual. I came out at 14 after struggling with eating disorders, depression and self harm for over 3 years. I've always known deep down who I am, and I have genuine sex dysphoria, which is traumatising and horrible for me. When I came out, I was bullied at school for my opinions. I don't think that most children/teenagers nowadays who say they're trans actually are. I put off coming out because I knew it was becoming a trend, and I didn't want to be part of that. I think the whole thing is ridiculous and really insulting to the genuine transsexual people. I don't believe that gender and sex are different things, and I think changing rooms and bathrooms etc should be sex-segregated. There are so many people claiming to be trans and i feel it invalidates me as a person, because people associate me with the Trans activist movement, and I don't for one minute believe their ideologies. I chose to transition after years of internalised pain and distress, so I could feel comfortable in my own skin. I would advise your dd to watch Blair White and Magdalen Burns on YouTube. They aren't transphobic or homophobic - they offer an alternative viewpoint to the madness and I strongly agree withat their opinions. Most genuine trans people don't shout down others or loudly voice any misogynistic or any offensiverrors language - we just want to be happy. To your dd: please don't be swept into any of these ideologies. They are most likely homophobic and misogynistic, and will do more harm than good. You sound bright and wonderful, so keep being you and don't be a sheep either :)

Few typos there, sorry

I also have a 15 year old dd who is a lesbian and shares her brothers' opinions. Both good kids and the only ones in their school not being sucked into this ideology. Dd has short hair and a small chest and is often bullied for being a 'tranny' because 'being gay is a genetic defect' she stands by herself though, which makes me proud.

JJ - a lot unsubstantiated statements based on unproven facts can be attributed to transactivists. The often stated face that puberty blockers for trans teens is totally safe and reversible is one such 'fact'. There's no long term study of the use in puberty blockers in children. They know there's no really dangerous side effects whilst they're taken, but no studies have been done to see if there are trends of late emerging side effects. They started this study in 2015 in America and it's still only running for 5 years -

And here's an article where Drs admit they're basically experimenting on children -

The drugs used in this country have depression as a side effect, how can it be proved that it's the dysphoria causing depression or the very drugs they've been put on to ease their discomfort exacerbating suicidal thoughts.

There are so many unsubstantiated trans facts that we are supposed to take as gospel. My liberal parents encouraged us to question everything, and I'm so glad they did. Questioning, debate and sharing ideas is how humans have managed to achieve so much, blindly following others leads to nothing

Things - thank your DS's for his contribution - it is a relief to hear from a sane person! I am struggling with my DD's gender difficulties but I do also know that there are some people who are transsexual and who do benefit from transitioning. I also know that the human brain isn't fully mature until around age 25, so without external pressure or other mental health problems, I would not have the difficulties I am having with my DD if that is what she needs for a fulfilling life. The trouble is that all she has now is external pressure, inflexible thinking and mental health problems, and I can't trust the medical profession to give her the space and time she needs.

Thanks thingsaregettingstranger 's DS - I wish you all happiness and I know Magdalen will be very pleased with your comments

things son I am normally a lurker on these threads but after reading your words I have to pop up to say how mature you sound and to wish you all the best

Thank you everyone

Sense, we also don't trust the medical profession on gender identity cases nowadays. They're all too quick to push you down the trans route. DS doesn't have a gender identity counsellor, just a 'normal' one to help him work out his feelings. He's so much happier than he's ever been but does find the whole trend a bit insulting. He used to have mental breakdowns caused by the sex dysphoria, and there are now apparently 3 year olds who are trans because they like dolls? Makes no sense.

thing and company

things

It sounds to me as though you are doing exactly the right thing by your child.

We've heard many times on these threads from parents such as you who are left high and dry unless they want to go down the medical route.

And, as far as I'm concerned, you are the first person to use the term sex dysphoria as opposed to gender dysphoria, because that is what it is. It is distress with your biology/sex.

I hope you hang around and update us. It was listening to a parent of another trans child that made me think far more deeply about the issue. It's easy to get sidetracked over the ridiculousness of, as you say three year olds being trans. But the issue of sex dysphoria is real and needs addressing.

from me too.

from me too, things and family.

Finally a UK petition re Gender Identity Bill : citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/41304-say-not-dangerous-gender-identity-bill?tc=fb&tcid=32808372

I just had a heated discussion with dd(16) who clearly thinks I'm a hopeless bigot. She was defending the right of MtT athletes to compete in women's events because "it's wrong to punish them for how they were born" she's also completely sold on the idea that it's possible to change your biological sex.
*Bangs head off wall

Ask her if she thinks we should get rid of women's sport entirely.

Tell her that the mere idea of changing biological sex, regardless of the practicalities, is transphobic. Transwomen are born biological women, right down to their ladypenises, and only a horrible TERF would imply otherwise.

Sadly, she might agree @Empress