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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

259 replies

FarmerJiles · 19/01/2017 13:47

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

OP posts:
JaxingJump · 15/02/2017 20:27

I've seen no sign of bigotry in descriptions of what these young people are saying and thinking. The existence of a few bad trans people says nothing about trans people. The existence of a very complex and discriminatory fraction of trans activism also does not define trans people. If anything I think some of the 'grown ups' thoughts on trans people cuts far closer to the discrimination and bigotry you seem to think your children are in danger of walking into. They sound young, hopeful, open to others and willing to defend others and possibly have not yet come in contact with the darker side of SOME trans activists. Why not put your energy into helping them see the difference between normal trans people and their rights, and the bad actions of some very extreme people.

JaxingJump · 15/02/2017 20:29

Just to add, I don't think the trans movement is anti feminist. I think some extreme trans activists are anti feminist. You can see there is a massive difference surely. But some of you seem determined to educate your children that it's the former.

Ouriana · 15/02/2017 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gallavich · 15/02/2017 20:38

The trans movement is inherently anti feminist. Reifying gender identity as an innate characteristic and reducing woman to a feeling is inherently anti feminist. Proposing that male and female brains are inherently different is anti feminist. Denying male socialisation and male supremacy under patriarchy is anti feminist. The trans movement can't exist without those basic principles.

JaxingJump · 15/02/2017 20:40

None of that gets a rise out of me. I just don't see it as being relevant to any of the trans people I know who I believe are indicative of the general trans population. So why would I blame trans people for some of this extreme stuff. It's got no more to do with them than it has to me. And maybe this is the same feeling your children have. I personally think it's the right way to feel about trans people. This stuff is not their fault.

Bitofacow · 15/02/2017 20:40

Just saying, the OP wants her daughter to be open to discussion and alternative ideas. Everyone agrees she - OP's daughter - should be open to differing views, while many on the thread are absolutely sure that they are right and other views are wrong.

Teenagers need to listen to reason and be open minded. Adults are allowed to make up their minds and not listen to other opinions. This attitude is why teenagers don't listen.

JaxingJump · 15/02/2017 20:42

I'm a feminist who is purely after equality. Not ownership of womanhood whatever that may be. Trans women identifying as women take nothing away from me and my strengths and my identity.

NerrSnerr · 15/02/2017 20:50

'Teenagers need to listen to reason and be open minded. Adults are allowed to make up their minds and not listen to other opinions. This attitude is why teenagers don't listen.'

^^ this

OpalIridescence · 15/02/2017 20:58

.

MrsJayy · 15/02/2017 21:00

There is the trend atm isn't there was just starting when 1 of mydds were 15 she had a friend at her drama club who was identifying as FM trans at the time the girl had a gender neutral name but said she was a they. I said to dd that people could identify as a purple dinosaur if it made them happy but there is no such thing as a Male or Female brain etc Dd is now 19 and seems to get it now and i also said her generation was not the first to do this.although i do think it is extreme and quite unsettiling

Ouriana · 15/02/2017 21:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gallavich · 15/02/2017 21:09

Trans women identifying as women take nothing away from me and my strengths and my identity

You're wrong there. Maybe you'll see it one day.

Bitofacow · 15/02/2017 21:12

You're wrong there. Maybe you'll see it one day.

^^ Now there is an argument that would make a teenager have a tantrum. In fact it makes me want to have a tantrum.

museumum · 15/02/2017 21:21

If I had a daughter I'd tell her honestly that I have never "felt" female. She wouldn't be all that surprised I think. I'd tell her that I don't "feel" male either.
I'd ask her how in her generation someone like me would describe myself (fluid, non binary, whatever) and then I'd explain that I never felt the need and still don't fit another label because I don't believe female gender should define me at all. I'd try discussing how I am female sex but that I think gender is just another way of imposing stereotypes.

Ouriana · 15/02/2017 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiddleGround · 15/02/2017 21:34

Anyone seen this from Stonewall? Any thoughts? www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/a_vision_for_change.pdf

AskBasil · 15/02/2017 21:46

"Trans women identifying as women take nothing away from me and my strengths and my identity"

Men identifying as women however, take your legal rights away from you.

If men can get pregnant too, sacking you for being pregnant is no longer sex discrimination.

If any man can identify as a woman, he can stroll into the shower you're using after swimming and wave his willy at you and if you complain, you're guilty of a hate crime.

If you get sent to prison and a rapist in the men's prison across town identifies as a woman, he can move into your cell and you can't complain because he's a woman now penis, bollocks, beard and all.

If you're OK with all that, bully for you. But don't throw the rest of us under the bus. Because most women aren't OK with this.

Bitofacow · 15/02/2017 21:54

If any man can identify as a woman, he can stroll into the shower you're using after swimming and wave his willy at you and if you complain, you're guilty of a hate crime

I was under the impression if someone harassed you you could complain. If I was having a shower in a public changing room and a woman waved her breasts at me and I felt threatened I could complain. The genitalia of the person doing the harassing is not necessarily the issue.

AskBasil · 15/02/2017 21:58

Think you'd be believed, bitofacow?

Think again.

We may live in the west, but a man's word -even when he's identifying as a woman - is still worth more than a woman's.

And also you think that's the solution? Complain? So it's all OK?

I suppose it doesn't matter that 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted, because we can complain, right?

FFS

SomeDyke · 15/02/2017 22:02

I guess the title says it all 'Acceptance without exception'.

It says that:
"This includes making sure that trans people are housed in the correct
prison and supported to live according to their self-identified gender."
So, ANYONE who says they are female should be moved to a womens prison, according to Stonewall, whether they have done anything to 'transition' or not, and whether or not they are a convicted rapist or not.

It is what you might have expected, self-identified gender identity trumps everything according to this document, and only slight lapse is that they think 'sex by deception' needs clarification (although they do really seem to think a trans persons right to privacy should remove the informed part of informed consent -- i.e. the transphobic idea that you should be fully informed before consenting, and if someone does not reveal their trans status, or lies about it, or tries to conceal it, then you are no longer actually consenting).

They also oppose the spousal veto (i.e. a womans right to CHOOSE whether or not she wants to enter a same-sex marriage when hubby announces he is trans..........).

I'm disgusted withn Stonewall, frankly, and I won't be giving them a penny ever again. Oh, and they do acknowledge that the lesbian and gay community can be a bit 'transphobic', so obviously feel they need to re-educate us all..............

Lesbians, gay men, straight under the bus...................

SomeDyke · 15/02/2017 22:05

"If I was having a shower in a public changing room and a woman waved her breasts at me and I felt threatened I could complain. "

Please explain exactly how a rampaging lesbian is going to threaten or harass you with her wildly swinging mammary glands?

As, opposed, say, to this lesbians right to not have to look at a penis when I'm in the changing room, ever.......................

Bitofacow · 15/02/2017 22:10

I can't see your point AskBasil.
If a woman harassed me I wouldn't be believed? Is that what you are saying?
If a man harassed me I wouldn't be believed?

My point is, it is the harassment that is the issue and there are laws to deal with this regardless of gender. How effective these laws are was not the point. I was saying you could complain and not be accused of a hate crime.

The wider point about women being sexually assaulted and not being believed is not one I was addressing. Your dismissive response and accusation that I was saying something that I wasn't is the kind of over reaction that means arguments are dismissed by teenagers. And others.

AskBasil · 15/02/2017 22:10

Yeah, let's pretend women are as likely to prance around sexually harassing each other, as men are to prance around sexually harassing women.

I have literally never felt sexually threatened by a woman in a nekkid environment. Never. Yet men - in fully clothed environments? So many times that I can't fucking count them.

Yet someone tells me maybe a woman will come round thrusting her breasts at me.

And yet I am the one who is told I am being unrealistic and the idea that predatory men will take advantage of another opportunity to harass women, is fanciful.

We are hysterical pearl clutchers we're told. Usually by people who also tell us that women might jiggle their breasts at us and threaten us.

I am so fucking far down the rabbit hole that the mad hatter's just passed me a fucking cup cake.

Bitofacow · 15/02/2017 22:16

SomeDyke harassment and assault is still harassment and assault regardless of genitalia. Do you really believe a woman could not harass and assault another woman? This situation involves being naked in a shower I can easily imagine how I could feel threatened by anyone.

I also in no way implied or suggested the attacker was a lesbian.

This is why people don't engage in these threads and teenagers don't listen.

Bitofacow · 15/02/2017 22:19

Yet someone tells me maybe a woman will come round thrusting her breasts at me

No you were not told this.

I suggested in a hypothetical situation the laws relating to harassment could be used to prevent you from being accused of a hate crime.