Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

259 replies

FarmerJiles · 19/01/2017 13:47

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 18/02/2017 14:03

Point out where I have ever used a pronoun to a person that they have said they don't want used. Go on. Frankly I find you one of the most disingenuous posters on this site.

And sanctimoniously tone policing others is rarely a good idea. If you want to leave, that's up to you. But it's a bit rich for you to be banging on about self-righteousness.

VestalVirgin · 18/02/2017 14:03

How about "I find that term offensive for x reason". As had been pointed out if you do not want to be offended by the use of 'cis' why would you offend others by using a pronoun they do not want?

But it is the other way round, is it not?

It is those clamouring most loudly that using the pronouns corresponding to their sex is "actual violence", because they do not identify with them, who insist on calling others "cis", despite having been told, time and again, that the women on here do not identify as cis and do not want to be called that.

There are many people who want the pronounds corresponding to their sex to be used for them; it is not always an insult.

But no one actively wants to be called "cis", I am pretty sure. Many tolerate it, but no one really wants to be called that.

SallyInSweden · 18/02/2017 14:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bitofacow · 18/02/2017 14:23

Vestal I was thinking about the threads on MN rather than wider society. I can absolutely see why both sides find these terms offensive. What bothers me is the terms this topic is discussed in.

Someone comes on the thread wanting to be educated and is faced with an an echo chamber of sneering, dismissive attitudes. The OP asked about discussing it with her teenager and many posts work on the absolute assumption that the prevailing MN orthodoxy is entirely correct and any other view is absolutely wrong. And not just wrong, but foolish and wrong.

This is obviously a complex issues and the goal posts are moving all the time. The extreme trans lobby clearly has the potential to do great harm. This being the case do we not need to meet their arguments with calm and logic. Responding in kind and ratcheting up the emotional invective is only going to force people into opposing camps. Venus being a case in point.

venusinscorpio · 18/02/2017 14:26

Would you like to stop being so goady then?

Bitofacow · 18/02/2017 14:28

Sally I am puzzled as to who is diverting who from what.
The thread is about how the OP can discuss the trans issue with her daughter. I am suggesting that the tone taken by many on the thread will alienate the teenager daughter.

The substantive issue on this thread is about communicating with teenagers, tone is therefore vital surely?

venusinscorpio · 18/02/2017 14:28

No need to name me in your rant, was there? Very rude to talk about me without addressing it to me. I'm right here.

venusinscorpio · 18/02/2017 14:29

Tone policing is often a form of trolling. Speaking completely in general terms.

Bitofacow · 18/02/2017 14:30

Venus "Point out where I have ever used a pronoun to a person that they have said they don't want used. Go on. Frankly I find you one of the most disingenuous posters on this site"

Yep goady, that's me. You on the other hand..........Wink

venusinscorpio · 18/02/2017 14:37

At least I told you directly what I think about you.

BarrackerBarma · 18/02/2017 15:45

I don't think many of the feminist posters use pronouns deliberately to offend posters who are on the same thread. Using appropriate language (he for male people, she for female) about anyone is not an offence. Compelling someone to respect a belief to which they don't subscribe by adhering to rules they reject is similar to saying atheists are offensive by not capitalising He when they discuss other peoples' god beliefs.
If you don't believe in gender at all, being required to address another person in accordance with their gender belief isn't a polite nicety. It's a rule demonstrating whose ideology submits to whose.

Datun · 18/02/2017 15:53

bitofacow

This lack of respect is absolutely the case frequently on MN trans discussions.

Why do you think that? I don't mean cutting and pasting comments people have made.

Why do you think they are making them?

Bitofacow · 18/02/2017 16:35

Barracker I am desperate to be side tracked by a grammar debate but unfortunately I have already been accused of diverting the debateSmile

My issue about the tone and lack of respect Datum is not for established posters but for new people.

As the trans issue becomes more prevalent people come looking for information. Many people will have met someone IRL who they want to help. All the trans people I know are teenagers, all are vulnerable, all are desperate for help and support. My instinct is to protect and help these people.

I come on MN and face a large amount of hostility and invective directed at these people. I am horrified and alienated. I do not know any bearded blokes forcing their way into toilets. I know scared teenagers using the toilets to sob in. The tone of some posters alienates me further and so I leave or 'flounce off'.

Everyone else on the thread is now happy again as they can discuss the issue with fellow believers.

However, the 'flouncers' miss the vital details about the way the extreme trans lobby are negatively impacting on hard fought for rights.

I don't think this is an 'either/or' situation. There are people on both sides who need help and support. Forcing people onto one side or the other by using hostile language hurts everyone. Language and tone that alienates the moderates or the uniformed is not moving this discussion anywhere.

Lack of respect - just because they lack respect for you does not mean you descend to their level.

venusinscorpio · 18/02/2017 17:02

The invective is directed at transactivists and unthinking trans allies and virtue signallers who don't care about women's rights. It's also sometimes directed at late transitioning transwomen who clearly by their behaviour have retained all their male privilege. Not at vulnerable people. As has been explained to you several times. I am not going to pretend I believe something I don't, or that my rights don't count. I am happy to engage with the opposite view, and have done on numerous occasions.

Please give the tedious tone policing and preachy attitude a rest. You've made your point, but you can't make people do what you want. Nor can I, so I'll leave it there.

Datun · 18/02/2017 17:25

bitifacow

I meant why do you think posters don't have respect?

Posters do make a big distinction between children with gender dysphoria and late transitioning cross dressing fetishists. We know the difference.

Gender dysphoria is a crippling condition and respect or otherwise simply does not come into it.

Yes, it is transactivists who are pushing the agenda. But it's not only about them. The agenda they are pushing will benefit autogynephiles everywhere.

They actively encourage youngsters to transition. It supports their theory that they were always female.

People with gender dysphoria should be treated on an individual basis. It is a psychological condition. Telling them they can change sex is wrong and when the delusion inevitably crumbles they are left with no recourse.

I don't see the trans community running head long to describe the different types of transitioning and the reasons for it. (Apart from Miranda Yardley and Helen Highwater). Despite sexual motivation being a big factor, you don't see them making a distinction between that and gender dysphoria.

Youngsters, particularly girls are coming out as trans at an unprecedented rate. A small percentage have gender dysphoria. The rest want to escape the confines of their gender. Transactivism reinforces those roles for their own dubious reasons .

So don't ask me to respect an ideology that damages the very youngsters you have compassion for them as well as women and girls everywhere.

If you want to address these points, I'm happy to engage.

Bitofacow · 18/02/2017 18:01

Datun I really am somewhere in the middle. My instinct is to support the vulnerable and I move to the left out of habit. This debate turns that all round though doesn't it?

I am interested in your explanation, thank you. You explain it clearly and I am with you until them. Is it really women vs trans activists? Are all trans activists the same? Gender dysphoria does exist so do we want to push these people into the same camp as sexual predators?

I don't want you to respect an ideology you believe damages people but you must see that some of the trans threads can be very alienating.

And not to be disingenuous I really am struggling to understand this issue. All my adult life I have known where I stand on the vast majority of issues and could back up my arguments intellectually. This opens a whole new area that I need to understand which brings me back to my point.

It would be best to engage with people - like the OPs daughter - who are adjusting to this new issue rather than telling them they are 'wrong' or 'stupid' both words used on this thread.

Thank you for your comments Datum, they are valued, as is the tone you usedSmile

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 19/02/2017 00:01

Bitof - I was like you, somewhere in the middle, until it directly affected me.

I agree that you can't fight fire with fire, however, it's hard to have an opposing view on trans issues without being accused of being a bigot. Trans activists have a big voice on the internet, and taken at face value, the basics of what they are fighting for is equal rights for all - which is fair enough until you realise the full implications.

The Internet, Tumblr especially, is populated by vulnerable, impressionable naval gazing teens looking for an answer. Before my daughter went through it, all I'd heard about Tumblr was mothers wanting it shut down for promoting anorexia. Interestingly, the number of girls with anorexia (body dysphoria) has fallen, while at the same time the number of girls with gender dysphoria has increased dramatically. Are the girls who used to be anorexic now switching to gender dysphoria? Trans ideology would not counter the idea as they push that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness and definitely not comparable to anorexia. Gender dysphoria is comorbid with many mental illnesses, my daughter's was a symptom of mental illness, amongst other things - once that was treated her dysphoria diminished. The blanket idea that if you think you're trans you're trans is harmful. Each person should be given the opportunity to work through where the dysphoria comes from, but that's now being touted as conversion therapy. The shots are mainly being called by very loud late transitioned transwomen. They are not thinking about the consequences to the vulnerable youth - they are just after validation for themselves.

If you know a way to counter the current trans narrative without being branded a bigoted transphobe, then please do say, as I'm at a loss. I'll then pass it on to the medical professionals we met along the way who were too scared to deviate from the transscript passed down for fear of repercussions. When even the professionals who are there to help are scared that they'll lose both credibility and their jobs if they speak out, what hope is there? We managed it with our daughter by being calm and rational, but she was just one person, not a huge well funded group, and it nearly broke all of us.

You may not know of any bearded blokes forcing their way into bathrooms, but I can assure you that the youths you know will have met or encountered some or similar. My daughter did and we're very rural. In her group of friends there were a couple of older (17-18) MtF who were attracted to females and were pursuading young (aged 13) lesbians to sleep with them. It's no wonder young lesbians are identifing as trans - it's an escape from male attention.

TiggyD · 19/02/2017 00:06

Transactivists do not all think and do the same things in the same way feminists don't all think and do the same things. Some transactivists get very het up about the slightest things, others are trying to stop bullying in schools, hate crimes, stabbings and workplace discrimination.

venusinscorpio · 19/02/2017 00:48

Yes, and provided they don't encroach on women's rights, try to erase biological women as a meaningful category, or invade women's boundaries or make workplace discrimination law against women a thing of the past, all good.

Datun · 19/02/2017 08:51

bitofacow

Thank you for responding. The subject is highly emotive and people's opinions become polarised as a result.

Lots of people know some, perfectly lovely trans-women and teenagers who are struggling. So when they see a criticism of the ideology they simply don't understand why.

I understand your political stance is telling you to support it. In fact most of the women who are transcritical on here are indeed left of centre. And also struggle to align themselves with what they see as a right wing position.

But once you drill down into the ideology, you see it is regressive, not progressive. It is saying that performing femininity is what makes a woman. And if you are a girl who doesn't want to do that, you must be a man.

We've had several parents on here with trans children who have found the logic used very helpful. This is not a logical ideology.

I don't think any of them would tell a teenager who is struggling that they are stupid. But telling they are wrong, I believe, is the correct thing to say.

I have read many accounts of people, mostly girls, who have detransitioned. They all thought that their lives would indeed completely change because they utterly, utterly believe that they could be a man.

When they found that saying you are a man, dressing like a man, and acting like a man doesn't change anything because it can't really, their disillusionment was profound.

They had to go back to the drawing board to examine all the reasons why they wanted to transition in the first place.

There is a significantly larger percentage of autism in number of boys who transition. One said he always felt as though he never belonged, and people told him he was the odd one out. When he discovered transgenderism he jumped on it as it was a way of explaining why he didn't fit. He was in the wrong body! So he transitioned, and still didn't fit. Because that's not the reason.

People transition for vastly different reasons. Young girls to escape the gender role, young boys because they are often gay and effeminate. Older men because they have sexual fetish. You rarely, rarely see older women transitioning. Why is that?

And yes I do believe transactivists are pushing the agenda. And yes for dubious reasons. You don't see female transactivists.

And lastly. I can't find a single incidence of a transwomen being attacked in a male bathroom here.

It is a multilayered ideology. And I'm almost all-points it is damaging. The few people who have gender dysphoria, transition and are then happy are becoming a significantly small percentage. And it is absolutely not them who are making it political.

Stopmakingsense · 19/02/2017 09:03

Nonhypothetical - thank you for putting into words exactly what I feel is going on with our DD. And also how I feel about the trans activists, who seem to have the ear of every policy maker. I am not a bigot and I uphold the rights of transgendered people to not be discriminated against. But I want the medical profession to exercise objective clinical judgement in the treatment of vulnerable young people, and for the rights of women and girls not to be trampled on.

Datun · 19/02/2017 10:15

bitofacow

This link talks about the discomfort between holding traditional left-wing views and then aligning yourself with what is perceived as a right wing questioning of the trans-ideology.

I haven't actually clicked on all the links in it, but it seems to me to be providing a coherent viewpoint that aligns both the left and the right.

handsacrosstheaislewomen.com/2017/02/08/feminist-in-exile/

Bitofacow · 19/02/2017 10:50

OP - show your daughter Datun's post.

Several thoughts occur. It's a similar situation you find yourself in when working with traditional Islamic communities. I support multi-culturalism but will object to the way some communities treat women. I may be called racist but am comfortable enough with the issue to ignore the names. I may be called racist but my employer and colleagues are not scared of the accusation because we are demonstrably not racist.

Some agencies were scared of accusations of racism and this lead to abuses - Rotherham etc.

Extreme trans activists are using this fear of unfair accusation to push their agenda. If we engage with them on their terms - extreme cases - hyperbolic language - competitive victim hood - aggressive accusations etc then we become the oppressors. They are poor victims. They win.

When objecting to cultural oppression of women by communities who happen to be Muslim, we make a clear distinction between culture and religion.

When objecting to extreme trans activism where do we draw the distinction?

Also, the insistence that people can not change sex, is it seems, a distraction. Sex and gender are not as binary as we were taught. So what? By insisting you are either male or female you are fighting on their turf. If people can be boy, girl or anything in the middle then sex change becomes more or less irrelevant. The issue then becomes safety for all.

MercyMyJewels · 19/02/2017 10:51

Show her this. Should focus the mind somewhat

MercyMyJewels · 19/02/2017 11:05

This is a reminder how child abuse can be justified. It's quite unbelievable what the left can believe in the name of 'human rights'.

We must never forget

Swipe left for the next trending thread