DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

[FarmerJiles]

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

I think that's at least part of the confusion.

Yes, I have asked. DS's answer was 'I think it's something only trans people can understand. You don't understand because you're not trans.'

Which is probably true, though possibly not as he meant it.

Lancelottie That's exactly the answer my daughter gives me. It's a very effective way of stamping on any sort of rational discussion. A lot of people are using the 'if you're not trans you have no right to question it' argument. So a lot of people don't question it. I think it is important to have open discussions about it, especially where it concerns children, teenagers and young adults but it is becoming increasingly more difficult to discuss without being either accused of 'not understanding' or being 'transphobic'.

I might try asking them whether they mean that only transgender people have genders.

Actually, though, I think all this gender-confusion reminds me more of my granny than of a modern free-thinking movement. 'What's 'e wearing that for then? Does 'e think 'e's a girl or what?'

I read a long argument on twitter between a transactivist and Arielle Scarcella, who is a liberal feminist lesbian activist. It was about whether saying you only wanted women with vaginas and breasts as a lesbian, as she did, was transphobic. That's not even the hardcore radfem view. The transactivist and all the trans allies didn't grasp that you can't regulate sexual orientation. To try to do so is homophobic. To say lesbians can't rule out biological men with or without penises without being bullied, guilt tripped and shamed is homophobic.

And misogynistic, as men never get this shit.

I know some very nice and vulnerable transwomen. I also know an equally vulnerable transwomen who is convinced they are actually a woman, that their lived experience as a woman is identical to mine (despite having transitioned in their late 40s and fathered children) and is very aggressive to any woman who dares to suggest otherwise.

This person is already rubbing their hands with glee about the proposed change in the law so that they can assert their right to get changed in communal women's changing rooms and bigots won't be able to complain about the fact that he is exposing his penis to all and sundry.

I don't think they're unusual. Because their rights are more important than women's rights. And I'm amazed that other women think that's acceptable.

The generation argument doesn't quite cut it. I'm 22, the majority of my friendship group are gender critical. One of my closest friends is FtM trans through genuine dysphoria rather than "I feel like a man", he despairs at the transactivists and their "chestfeeding" and "man dick". My younger brother is 17 and will engage in gendercritical debate with me, and can see that much of what transactivism stands for is inherently harmful to women. It balances out some of the Tumblr transactivism he's exposed to online.

"girl dick", even

I also know an equally vulnerable transwomen who is convinced they are actually a woman, that their lived experience as a woman is identical to mine (despite having transitioned in their late 40s and fathered children)

Mmm, me too. I don't know her particularly well, but I did blink at the conversation opener of 'It's the mothering, isn't it, that's so important to a girl?' I was starting to agree (given this is someone who had progressed up their career by essentially leaving his two girls entirely in the care of their mother except for a two-week jolly every summer) but then realised he meant himself.

Sorry about bloody pronouns there. Tried a couple of times to distinguish between the relevant 'mothers' and got confused.

Trans campaigning organisation Stonewall define transgender as: "any person whose gender identity / expression does not conform to conventional ideas of male or female gender, or the sex they were assigned at birth."

Could that be something worth discussing with the teenagers? What are "conventional ideas of male or female gender"? Does this mean any girl who doesn't wear dresses and like housework, or any boy who doesn't like football and DIY, must be trans? Everyone except heterosexuals is trans? Hopefully they'll see this as the reactionary nonsense it is, not to mention a slap in the face to people with genuine, serious body dysphoria.

That would be an interesting conversation to have with mine (once they've stopped eyerolling and muttering 'You'll never get it').

DS is usually assumed to be gay by random strangers and classmates (he isn't - it's the dancing). DD, though a more reticent type, seems to me to be trying to work out whether she is gay. Life is looking harder than before, right now, for a young gay teenager, so I hope we can keep talking.

The physical side is generally seen as positive & affirming & so on for kids too but... well.

This link shows the effects of wearing a breast binder. I warn you, it's horrible.

This link explains the side effects of a puberty blocker called Lupron. It's not a benign reversible drug to give kids time to decide. It's a chemo drug used to treat prostate cancer through chemical castration, whose side effects include osteoporosis, chronic pain and depression.

The thing is that it doesn't stand up to discussion. It's all a bit flimsy and subjective and vague and ill thought through and unworkable for the most part. Which is why transactivists don't want it to ever be discussed. They want these changes steamrollered through. I am more than happy for there to be discussion.

Yes, I have asked. DS's answer was 'I think it's something only trans people can understand. You don't understand because you're not trans.'

Strange, how we wimmin could not possibly understand how the trans feel because we're not trans, but the MtT feel entitled to stating that they "feel like women".

If they're really women, like us, then we're entitled to have an opinion, aren't we?

Or they're trans, and genuinely different, fair enough, in which case they should stop assuming that they know what it feels like to be a woman.

But, eh, logic. Doesn't work with transwacktivists.

Yes. I rather think being a woman is only something that women can understand. So it seems to me that biological men have absolutely no frame of reference. They can't "know" they are a woman. They can only know they don't feel what they think a man should feel like.

The main meaningful commonalities about being a woman:

A) biology
B) socialisation as girls and women

Liking pink or nail varnish or whatever is not a meaningful commonality, it is a socialised aspect of personality.

Socialised for girls and women, not boys and men

Lupron is also prescribed to women for lots of gynaecological issues like endometriosis and fertility issues. There is pressure in the us to ban it as the alleged side effects are often completely debilitating and irreversible and women have apparently died. If used as a puberty blocker, children would presumably be exposed to this potentially very harmful drug for a period of 5 to 6 years.

A doctor on another thread said that it is unofficially the BMA party line that doctors cannot discuss these risks with the young people or their families as it's seen as influencing them against transition, and transition is the only game in town, anything else is "conversion therapy". It's terrifying. All reason and need for evidence is going out of the window to pander to this vocal activist group. How is this happening?

There are many terrible side effects reported by those who have been treated with Lupron. It is terrible the way it's being sold to the public as a safe, risk-free "pause" to give children time to decide. It's a scandal in fact.

It is.

It’s been a long time since I was a parent of a teen, so I don’t know if this might help:

www.eatliver.com/crazy-logic/

I should say that the website describes its content as “Crazy Pictures of the Insane Internet”, and usually has funny images: animals photobombing, mocking Trump’s hairstyle, and similar sarky stuff. But this particular cartoon does go some way to pointing out the illogicality of adult thinking about transing children.

But if you don’t want to click on the link, and anyway you don't know me, the text is:

Mom, I want to drink alcohol.
– No, Jenny, you are 9.

Mom, I want to start smoking.
– No, Billy, you are 12.

Mom, I want to vote.
– No, Timmy, you are 6.

Mom, I’m actually a girl and want to make life-altering decisions based on that premise.
– Have some estrogen and we’ll schedule a surgery.