DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

[FarmerJiles]

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

I think that post is spot on, Bitof. YY to the trans people I know in real life being very nice.

I think the issue for me is self-identification as a basis for law. I get why trans people don't like the idea of medical professionals as "gatekeepers" - it must be awful to feel your very existence is being made dependent on the say-so of psychologists. (And as an aside - a lot of people on these threads mention that trans people seem to go over-the-top with performing gender stereotypes. This in many cases is actually the result of the medicalisation of the GRC process; the psychologists expect a stereotyped performance of femininity in order to grant a GRC. Many trans people I know have then relaxed into a much less stereotyped version of themselves once they no longer have to perform for the gatekeepers.)

So I can see why trans people find the medicalisation of this process so offensive. But the alternative is self-identification, and this is no basis for law, for (I think) a fundamental philosophical reason. Law is all about the shared, public realm of discourse, behaviour and evidence. You have to be able to hold up publicly scrutable evidence and say "here it is, and this is why this action is okay or not okay in these circumstances."

But "I feel like a woman/man on the inside" is by definition not publicly scrutable. The only evidence for its veracity is inside the head of the person making the assertion. They may or may not be telling the truth - the rest of us have no way of knowing. Hence my comment upthread where I said that if self-identification goes through you might as well get rid of the the criminal offences of indecent exposure and voyeurism. Because the defence of "but I feel like a woman, therefore I am one" is irrefutable. Anyone can claim it (whether they themselves know it to be true or not) and the rest of us have no way of rebutting that claim, because we cannot possibly be privy to their thoughts.

And that's a lousy basis for law-making.

The other thing is that the transgender umbrella doesn't just cover people with gender dysphoria any more. They are literally the only transpeople I have sympathy for. Because yes, I think the only medical basis is that it is a mental illness. There are an awful lot of bandwagon jumpers and "genderqueer" special snowflakes that I can see. As well as plenty of men who can best be described as fetishists and actively want to invade women's space.

jaxing

I hear what you are saying. And I have had discourse with some wonderful transwomen.

However there is a section of trans-women who identify as autogynephiles. ie Their transition is definitely sexually motivated. Grayson Perry for instance is a self-confessed autogynephile. He doesn't demand that he is actually a woman and is therefore not transgender. But the condition exists. And many late transitioning males have it. It is irrefutable.

It's not just about accommodating the percentage of trans-women who are like your friends.

They are literally the only transpeople I have sympathy for.

This lack of sympathy is transparent in many posts on this subject, and to refer back to the OPs teenage daughter, it may well be this lack of sympathy that alienates her. It certainly alienates me.

I can't imagine entering into any trans lifestyle without there being some serious issues behind it. I don't know what those issues are and it may lead people into criminal and unpleasant behaviour. I will not condone their actions yet I still have sympathy for them as troubled individuals.

People are calling for the law to proactively clamp down on trans people though based on the past and potential actions of individuals. That's not how it works, for very good reasons. A trans woman in a men's prison is just a trans woman. If she also happens to be a violent criminal she needs to be treated like a violent criminal and appropriate action taken. But you can't treat someone like a violent criminal because they are trans. Which is ultimately what you'd be doing if you refused trans women access to women's prisons.

Why would I have sympathy for people who don't have gender dysphoria yet want to erase women as a meaningful category because of Pomo theory? Or for autogynephiles who want to use women as a prop for their sexual fetish?

Well I'm afraid their disregard for my rights, my privacy, my dignity, my boundaries, my feelings as a woman rather diminishes any sympathy I might feel for them as "troubled individuals" Bitof. I reiterate I am not talking about dysphoria.

How do you define a transwoman, Jaxing. It looks like Ian Huntley is calling himself Lian. Shall we move Lian to a women's prison now?

I'm still waiting for justification of transwomen in rape crisis centres.

Jaxx, in its submission to the select committee chaired by Maria Miller, the professional body of psychologists who deal with prison inmates raised the issue of some male prisoners pretending to be trans to gain access to women's prisons, whether because they thought they would get an easier ride, or because they were sexual predators. They seemed to think this would be a real, and statistically significant problem (bear in mind that there are approximately 100 male sex offenders in prison for every female one).

My question for you would be "how do we tell the difference?" If you concede that some prisoners in the male estate are genuinely trans and some are taking the piss, how are we to decide which is which? I look at the likes of David ("Davina") Ayrton and Ian Huntley (if indeed that is true) and just think these are not women, they are men who are taking the piss (and men who are severely mentally disturbed to boot).

I want a system which protects transwomen like the prisoner who committed suicide in Armley jail last year, but which also protects women prisoners (the vast majority of whom are in prison for non-violent offences, and over half of whom have histories of being physically or sexually abused or both as children) from predatory men.

How do you propose we do this? How do we protect both sets of people, the genuine transwomen, and the female prison population, without pandering to the predatory men seeking to use a loophole in the law for their own ends?

This isn't about mere feelings versus rights, as you claim, it is about one set of rights (the right of transwomen in prison to be safe) versus another set of rights (the rights of women in the female estate to be safe).

I actually love her unquestioning on the transitions. How cool is your daughter? I wish I had more friends like her at school.

I'm not dismissing your concerns at all, I just wanted to note that she's awesome and given how analytical and open her thinking seems to be, she'll probably come to her own conclusions quite successfully.

No help either, but following. Struggling with this with DS. I think school is a massive melting pot where they all fuel each other.
I do think a couple of years in the 'real world' will help. He's just come back from a week's work experience at a plumbing firm (he wants an apprenticeship) and seems happier than ever.
Sadly, he has to go to school and deal with this on a daily basis.

It far less analytical to claim there's not at least a discussion to be had as regard gender as a social construct.

I'm all for having that discussion. It's not the gender critical that want to have that discussion shut down in the name of inclusivity Orwellian censorship

My daughter was a very scared individual when she identified as trans for 4 years. She was also very vulnerable. She was also (and still is) 'very nice'.

She was scared because the people she was chatting to on the internet told her she'd die if she didn't transition. All the literature she read told her she would probably kill herself if she didn't get validation.

To me the trans movement is a lot of smoke and mirrors. There are sites with information on how to convince the medical gatekeepers that you are the real deal and have GID (gender identity disorder) and are not mearly GNC (gender non conforming). However, especially in children, those raised in families with strict gender perceptions or those raised in homophobic environments, GNC can cause the same feelings of dysphoria as GID. Trans activists (not just the shouty angry ones - ones who influence government policy) now dismiss studies that show between 60-90% desistance in youths who think they are trans as they include those who are GNC alongside those with GID. So those that desisted were never trans in the first place, more smoke and mirrors. Of course those desisters weren't trans in the first place, that's the whole point, but they really did believe they were.

My daughter had intense dysphoria, she would cry herself to sleep as she couldn't wait to be 16 so she could get top surgery and hormones. I'm very liberal, but I didn't think her having a mastectomy at 16, and making other permanent changes to her body was the solution to her future self. She would never be happy, there would always be the big elephant in the room, being fundamentally a natal female.

OP - I'd recommend googling transgendertrend and 4thwavenow. You'll then find links to other sites. Keep calm and be reflective with your dd. We found calm reason worked best, waiting for her to bring subjects up and the gently questioning her beliefs with lots of why's?.

OP - I'd recommend googling transgendertrend and 4thwavenow. You'll then find links to other sites. Keep calm and be reflective with your dd. We found calm reason worked best, waiting for her to bring subjects up and the gently questioning her beliefs with lots of why's?.

Think this is great advice.

jaxing
You think that a fully male human who has had no surgery or hormones, and who has a fully working penis, should be a rape
Counsellor, have a place in a
Woman's refuge or women's prison, just because they wear a dress and makeup and call themselves a woman?

I've had this same conversation with two of my teens (the third is too taken up with his own misery to give two hoots about anyone else's inner conflict - might get as far as 'boy, girl, who cares, bog off').

I must say, their point of view that 'trans people just are, there are dozens of genders now, god mum you're like so old-fashioned, your generation doesn't understand it' is not entirely convincing, as arguments go.

I've only just seen this thread but to go back to OP - I have just watched this amazing video from a detransitioned lesbian:
purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2017/02/16/video-faye-haze-reconciles-with-being-female/
and I wonder if it would be useful to show it to your daughter. There is another current thread on MN about a lesbian being bullied at school for not being trans - there is some strange thinking going on in school and it's not all just healthy 'acceptance'.

I must say, their point of view that 'trans people just are, there are dozens of genders now, god mum you're like so old-fashioned, your generation doesn't understand it' is not entirely convincing, as arguments go.

Have you asked them what the difference between a gender and an individual personality is, in their opinion?

Those dozens of genders are just dozens of individual personalities, who still belong either in the women's bathroom or the men's, likewise with prisons, etc.

There are no different prisons for people who like kittens and those who like dogs, so why segregate according to "gender"?

There's another thread on here where a "genderqueer" man has joined a company so they have designated a set of women's cubicle toilets (obviously it was going to be the women's) as gender neutral. So all the women squeeze into the set of cubicle toilets which are women only. Because they are uncomfortable at sharing such an intimate space with men. Women do not want this. It's not clear yet to people what they are being expected to give up.

That's a really good way of thinking about it, vestal.