DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

[FarmerJiles]

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

I wonder if this video carries any weight on this debate?

Ouriana

He should be made to first define the word 'woman', before he decides anything about them.

Every single argument against the trans movement is based on the actions of bad people (posing as trans) or extremists.

You can't shit on the rights of trans people because of the actions of these people. That is human rights in its most basic form.

Why do their rights involve shitting on ours? Why do they trump ours? Why are their feelings all important and ours not worth shit?

And I'm fine with trans women in women's prisons, trans women in my bathroom, trans women in roles supporting victims of rape. You can't treat and legislate trans people as if they are potential criminals in the same way as thankfully gay men have stopped being treated as potential pedophiles.

And that's bollocks. The idea of not letting any man who feels like it self identify as a woman is not just based on extremist transactivists. It is based on respect for the privacy, dignity and boundaries of women and girls as well as safety.

I don't see trans women having equal rights to us as interfering with my rights in any way. There is no conflict. I have a right to access to a toilet. I don't have a right to access to a toilet without people I don't trust (because of my own prejudice) in it.

That's nice, that you're ok with it. How lovely. Other women aren't? Fuck them.

Equality for them does not have to include trampling over women's rights.

Predudice is a difficult place to be. They have my sympathy.

It's prejudice not to want a man in a women only rape crisis centre or a communal women's changing room? It's you who is an extremist. The majority of women do not support this.

Why are their feeelz so important, and women's aren't? Perhaps you should examine your own attitude.

It's not their feelings that are important, it's their rights. This is where our disagreement on the situation may be. Women have rights, trans women have rights. Women's feelings may be displaced by trans women's rights. But I don't think women's rights are displaced. Both groups have equal rights, regardless of their feelings. Those extreme trans activists are also caught up in feelings not rights.

It's quite literally all about their feelings. What are we basing the definition of a transperson on?

Why do you believe transwomen are women?

Trans women in rape crisis centres? Seriously?!

Many women who need rape crisis centres have PTSD. This may centre around, or involve, fear/discomfort of penises. The vast majority of trans women have penises. Why are the feelings of someone who wants to wear a dress more important than the recovery of a woman who has been through a significant trauma?

I try not to get involved in these anymore because I get too angry but this is a whole new level of what the fuck.

They can have equal rights. We can lobby for legislation that companies have to provide a choice of men, women and gender neutral spaces. Why should it be women that are disadvantaged and disregarded? Answer: because the feelings and wishes of women aren't worth shit. If you can't see that, there's not much point in having this conversation.

Jaxing understands our anger, Ovaries. Prejudice is a difficult place to be, apparently.

And I'm fine with trans women in women's prisons

So you'd be fine with this budding transwoman moving to a women's prison?

How about this one?

What about someone with a history of violent crime who makes a living by touting their "seven-inch-surprise" on sex sites? Still no problem?

I think one of the issues many people have is that our personal experiences do match the extreme rhetoric - on both sides.

The extreme trans lobby is clearly wrong in man ways. You can produce examples of high profile trans people behaving in ways most people would dislike and disagree with.

However, my experience of trans people is of people who are extremely vulnerable. People who are struggling to come to terms with who they are in a society that is still very hostile. I know no aggressive trans people demanding rights. I do know scared, vulnerable individuals.

I would imagine the OPs teenage daughter sees the second group I describe. To lump these scared, vulnerable individuals into the same category as vocal, aggressive sexual predators no doubt seems unfair to her as it does to many others.

The extreme trans lobby is clearly wrong in man ways

I meant in many ways - but I actually think the typo works

It might seem unfair, but that's the reality. Laws don't just benefit nice people, and nor should they. It has to be a question of what's right for all. We cannot legislate to protect people's feelings.