Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

[Tootickyandsnufkin]

I hope I explain this ok. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense, or if I'm expressing something obvious.

Consent comes up a lot on here/MN. Usually the discussion is around whether consent is confusing etc. Everyone is familiar. I hope isn't is prompting the usual debate. But I guess maybe that where it goes.

The idea of teaching "consent" to boys/young men bothers me. I wonder what it says about men that they have to be taught. Then i think about what else we teach our children. Thinking on the go....I guess we work to develop empathy in many areas but how do they develop naturally otherwise? isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence? Or is it consequences that shapes behaviour. Which of course there is generally a lack of in terms of non consensual sex/sexual acts.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

And I assume from your post that you think girls are just better academically than boys ?

It isn't white middle class boys that perform poorly, statistically. It's white working class boys.

growapear there is nothing in my post that would indicate that I think girls are better than boys, in any way.

You seem, by your posts, to imply that improving the world for women necessarily makes the world worse for men? Why is it you think that?

Why do you think boys are doing worse in school?

And this thread started on the subject of consent - teaching my son about consent, doesn't make the world in any way worse for my son.

"and will actually be probably paid less than women once they graduate"

The converse is true at the moment. University of Warwick research reported here:

www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/graduate-gender-pay-gap-university-subject

Despite women having better entry qualifications than men, women still earn less upon graduation.

So, get back to us when this changes. Interesting though how we are supposed to worry about what poor ole failing chaps are going to do, not just before it happens, but whilst women are still being underpaid for their skills and achievements! How much higher do we still have to jump to get equal outcomes?...................

is it ? citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.611.9323&rep=rep1&type=pdf

And this thread started on the subject of consent - teaching my son about consent, doesn't make the world in any way worse for my son

True - i did change the subject there.

btw some dyke - your link is from 2013, here's one from 2015 www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds which apparently says the opposite.

But you're right this is nothing to do with consent, just the narrative that boys have it easy in comparison to girls and the consequences of telling them that against a backdrop where there is strong evidence young women are doing better than them.

growapear if women do now earn slightly more during their 20s, the available information shows that men will still out earn them by a much larger amount in the subsequent age bracket. So that should cheer you up.

Sorry late to the party, but I wonder how many adults needs to educated about consent. When I was 12 my best friend's mum was my teacher. I spent a fair bit of time at their house and bf's brother used to corner me & sexually assault me. One day when I went there he told me he had bought some condoms; I did not know what to do & had always just frozen in horror when he'd assaulted me before. I asked my friend to tell her mum (my teacher) she came back in & I asked what her mum said & she told me she'd said "well, you can't stop young people having sex." When the boy cornered me next I just ran out of the house and he did finally get the message & get a new "girlfriend" - To get to the point; it wasn't until I heard the exact same phrase reportedly used by social workers & teachers in the Rotherham and Oxford sexual abuse cases that I realised the extent to which my teacher/his mother had let me down.

I now have a teenage DS and I started from about the age of 11 to talk to him about sex and the importance of making sure your partner wants to have sex too by talking to them about it. He was obviously quite embarrassed whenever I raised the subject, but as he's got older he is quite open about what stage a relationship is at and talking about any worries. He's never possessive or dismissive or critical and he seems really empathic and sensible and I'm amazed really, I didn't know teenage relationships could be like that.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

To me, teaching "consent" is simply a means of making it easier to tell decent men apart from rapists.

If you expect men to act on nonverbal cues, and, for example, kiss you when you feel like it, you will never be able to tell whether a man who kissed you against your will was just clueless - or meant to assault you.
(Though it is likely the latter; people who are bad at reading body language know that and don't want to offend)

If, on the other hand, we had a system where all men who do have empathy ask, or wait for a verbal invitation, there would be no more excusing sexual violence as "a misunderstanding" or the like.

There are problems with the consent vocabulary, and teaching consent sometimes seem to result in rapists being able to more eloquently pretend to not be rapists, but I think that "men has to know when woman wants to be kissed, but is never allowed to just ask" is not a healthy attitude either.

but I think that "men has to know when woman wants to be kissed, but is never allowed to just ask" is not a healthy attitude either.

This. I've seen more than a few times women complain how much of a turn off a man asking "can i kiss you","is this ok" etc. is. I don't get it. Worst case,it might ruin the "movie-like" moment,but how is someone respecting your feelings and boundaries a turn off?

Way tmi but i cry when i orgasm,and it starts as I'm getting close. Even after 8 years of knowing this, OH will still ask if I'm ok and if he should keep going. Because he gives a shit and doesn't just assume.