Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

[Tootickyandsnufkin]

I hope I explain this ok. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense, or if I'm expressing something obvious.

Consent comes up a lot on here/MN. Usually the discussion is around whether consent is confusing etc. Everyone is familiar. I hope isn't is prompting the usual debate. But I guess maybe that where it goes.

The idea of teaching "consent" to boys/young men bothers me. I wonder what it says about men that they have to be taught. Then i think about what else we teach our children. Thinking on the go....I guess we work to develop empathy in many areas but how do they develop naturally otherwise? isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence? Or is it consequences that shapes behaviour. Which of course there is generally a lack of in terms of non consensual sex/sexual acts.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

I am not convinced of ignorance. Is education grasped at because we are failing to address the prosecution issues?

Nor do I think sexual assault is rare. And if you think there is a need for widespread education, then how can you be sure that my sons would not grow up to commit such a crime?

I do hope I raise them to be compassionate and empathetic but isn't there this notion that I should be building up an idea of consent in an age appropriate way right from an early age? Explicitly tailored to consent issues.

Are we just at a really primitive place in getting to an understanding that men cannot rape women as and when they want?

The problem of course is that if you've left teaching boys about consent until the point where you're talking about it in terms of sex, then you've left it too late. Consent is learned from babyhood, with lessons about kind hands, kind words and not being made to have physical contact with people the child chooses not to. Schools/nurseries can reinforce those lessons from day one, while teaching new ones around working cooperatively and taking care of yourself.

This is why SRE should be compulsory and taught from reception. If it's left to Yr5/6 then opportunities might be missed, especially if there are difficulties around respect/boundaries at home and because research suggests that boys are statistically likely to have been watching porn from the age of 8.

Tooticky Learning about consent happens from babyhood though, so it's an extension of an existing framework (ideally) when it comes to sexual consent.

Consent teaching from childhood examples:

Ask if you can borrow that toy, don't just take it
Ask if you can have another ice cream, don't just get one
That's enough playing now, X is tired of that game
Why don't you ask X if they want to play outside, maybe X doesn't want to play outside right now.

Sadly the people who really need a lesson in sexual consent are those who really need/needed a lot of other lessons in life that they didn't get along the way.

but I think 'teaching consent in an age appropriate way' is what other posters have mentioned, teaching empathy and respect from birth, treating children with respect and so on- I've never felt the need to teach my children 'oh, and also, very important, don't murder anyone, even if they have annoyed you and you think you can get away with it'
but I'm confident they won't murder anyone.

I don't think a workshop by itself will achieve much, but consent does absolutely need to be taught. It's far more than just telling rapists not to rape - it's about dispelling myths and broadening understanding about what rape actually is. And it won't just be would-be rapists who receive the lessons, but would-be rape apologists and young people who will (hopefully) step up when they see boundaries being crossed, or hear their peers bragging about dodgy situations. And dispelling rape myths will help future victims understand that they're not to blame.

Yes I think these are new primitive ideas. It's part if breaking out of a patriarchal point of view.

Unfortunately there are many influences (such as online porn which is instantly available to a curious mind, or even pop culture) that prop up usual patriarchal ideas that suggest the female body is a passage to male pleasure, rather than the reverse, and that a woman is more accommodating etc.

So while your sons (and the DS of room101) are well brought up, you can't protect them entirely from the influence of peers, the surrounding pop culture, current ideologies etc.

But we have already made amazing progress when u look at anti-victim blaming campaigns and the attention that certain rape trials get now which would have been ignored normally.

I don't think I'm questioning whether it should or shouldn't be taught. Although I do have issue with teaching it a way that supports consent as confusing a la recent famous defence cases.

It's more that I find it depressing how common sexual assault is and that there is a need to teach don't assault/rape. We don't have inbuilt programmes about tackling other types of crime. Do men value women's autonomy so little that we need to be specific? Or am i underestimating how many other crimes I ward off with my parenting without realising it?

Sorry x-posting. Will read.

" Or am i underestimating how many other crimes I ward off with my parenting without realising it?" Yes, I think this.

Op I've been pondering this recently.
The cup of tea analogy that keeps getting linked to is dreadful IMO.

Good point teeth

Tooticky - it's possibly an area of crime where immaturity meets a lot of opportunity. It's quite unique in terms of crimes because it relies so heavily on mutual respect and trust of two people whose emotions and physical states can be changing minute by minute. and that's why it can be a problem particularly to those who are already lacking in observing personal boundaries, impulse control and so forth.

My view is that as tooth said the an appreciation consent should naturally develop as part of an individual's wider moral socialisation. If you are raised to treat others will respect, then you will not be a rapist. Maybe there are some very socially challenged men who have difficulty reading cues, but the majority of men who commit sexual assault do so in the full knowledge that they are forcibly depersonalising a women into a discardable receptacle: they just don't care. in fact, for some sex offenders the thrill comes from the very fact that the victim does not consent. They are sadists and enjoy her lack of consent.

In pornography violent themes are not inadvertent but central. Much porn does not obscure consent so much as present its absence as arousing. The growing popularity of BDSM attests also a normalisation of violence as a feature of sexual fantasy. Boys and young men do not ejaculate on a girls face out a kind of innocence, but because they have been taught by porn culture that degrading women is arousing, and mutuality is boring. They know it's wrong, and they don't care.

The left are fixated on wooly education about consent as a corrective to the sexual nihilism of our times, because they want to distance themselves from all the institutions that used to instill people with moral values. These institutions were often questionable, but without them there are no morals at all. Just do as you please.

I don't know teeth. The people I know who have ignored sexual consent don't seem to have gone around taking anything else without consent, nor handing out unwanted hugs or affection. I wonder if the wrong message is focused on. It's about how women are viewed.
I appreciate the responses. Has got me thinking.

Slow posting again. Was referring to earlier post. Sorry!

ymmv

That was an interesting link. Part of me wanted to say to the author well you didn't really think those things did you? But then I can totally see how all those messages seep in.

Nowadays if you get somebody drunk in order to have sex with them, it is considered rape but it wasn't very long ago when it was considered a completely normal seduction technique. Attitudes are definitely changing. Also helped by these high-profile rape trials. You get the usual MRAs spouting off, but social attitudes are definitely changing.

I very much like previous posters' techniques regarding unwanted hugs, not teasing the cat and not snatching toys that don't belong to you. Teaching children, particularly boys as they grow into men, that they should not have a sense of entitlement is enlightening.

I think one of the issue Too is that lots of people think of rape as something that happens in a dark alley. They think of sexual assault as necessarily violent. They don't think if it as something a friend/boyfriend can do. They don't think it can be non violent.

I was sexually assaulted as a student at a party. A classmate walked up to me, out of the blue, grabbed both my breasts without a word and then walked back across the room to rejoin the group he was talking to.

The general reaction was laughter. The worst anyone, including my friends, thought of him was that he was an arsehole. Not one person asked if I was ok, or said the words sexual assault. No one spoke up for me or remonstrated with him.

I was distraught and quietly left the bar to call my boyfriend to come and pick me up. I stood outside for 30 minutes weeping while I waited. It never even occurred to me to tell the bouncer.

On the Monday morning there was general surprise that I should still be uspet about it. When I expressed anger that people still thought it was funny and threatened to report it to the university the entire class was angry with me. It would be my responsibility if I'd ruined his career you see.

I didn't report it. I didn't tell my parents. It's been 20 years and I'm still upset about it because I felt so powerless, so degraded and so disregarded. It wasn't violent, I wasn't frightened, though I was shocked to my core. I can't even begin to imagine how women who've been raped feel.

The man that assaulted me was a "nice boy", an intelligent 22yo graduate and it absolutely didn't occur to him or anyone else there that touching my breasts required my consent. That's why we need to teach consent - to everyone.

He married his girlfriend at the time, took a job at a city firm and now has a daughter. I wonder what his view on it now would be - but to be honest I bet he doesn't even remember.

I have both a son and a daughter both in Prinary School. I'm already teaching my DD that she has bodily autonomy. I'm already teaching my DS that if they are playing a rough and tumble game that the instant she says "no" or "stop" he stops immediately.

When they are older I'll tell them this story. And I'll tell that that I've been regretting not calling the bouncer and not reporting him for 20 years.

ColemansCat thank you for posting your experience. Sorry that happened. What a shit culture, all too familiar. I think its relevant to the flip side of my thoughts that I talked about in my post (copied below).

I'm really sorry that it still upsets you and so it may be a really insensitive thing to wonder. But for my own part when I think about education/culture I then have difficult thoughts about whether I should be understanding of people who grew up in different times.

if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue?

The article you linked was interesting ymmv and in terms of the scenarios/cultural references a very uncomfortable but difficult to ignore read.

I think it's a cultural issue Too.

My lovely boyfriend was furious and wanted to go and speak to the offender. Not to hit him I might add, just to give him a piece of his mind.

I didn't let him, I didn't want to risk a fight (for my boyfriends sake).

Looking back I think that although none of the people in the room thought that I should have given consent to be touched that way, or thought that I was entitled to be angry, they would all have understood my boyfriend's anger. No one would have thought it was out of place if my boyfriend had hit him.

Because women are still property. Culturally.

It's the reason that "I'm married" works to dissuade the persistent man trying to chat you up but "I'm not interested" doesn't work at all.

So yes, it's an educational issue. We need to teach our children about consent in order to change our culture.

Looking back I think that although none of the people in the room thought that I should have given consent to be touched that way, or thought that I was entitled to be angry, they would all have understood my boyfriend's anger. No one would have thought it was out of place if my boyfriend had hit him.

^this.

It's perfectly culturally acceptable for a partner to get arse with a man who is staring at you, but it's not on your behalf! It's on their own behalf.

Colemans what a horrid experience. My sympathies. I think you're right some that some men only think of sexual assault in its legal definition as a violent act in which the victim is physically overpowered. But whether they fail to understand groping someone is wrong or not, I don't know. Did the person who assaulted you know he was doing something that would cause you huge distress but didn't care? Our did he do so actually believing you wouldn't mind? The latter is quite hard to believe.

We haven't yet moved away from generations of people not recognising body autonomy, or a culture where it's ok for men to try and get their leg over as often as possible. Where seduction is romantic. We still parent in a very controlling way, seeing children as property, demanding respect from them, dismissing their feelings.

I'm hoping the next generation is the one where consent is not a difficult issue. At the moment, it is like a prejudice which is so ingrained those who have it can't see the issue. And I sort of do feel a bit sorry for guys who have failed to understand that the world does not revolve around them, women do not exist for their sexual gratification, they can't have whatever they want as long as they want it enough. They are like badly socialised dogs who can't be allowed out off lead or without a muzzle. Dangerous to everyone around them.

We still parent in a very controlling way, seeing children as property, demanding respect from them, dismissing their feelings

In my view, the problem is that we do not do enough controlling. Many children are not raised to be moral agents with respect for others. They are more shaped by a culture which teaches them to prioritize their own selfish gratification, sexual or otherwise, over moral norms.

I wonder if the problem is just the word - we shouldn't teach kids they need to get "consent" - we should teach them that sex should be mutually enjoyable and they should only engage in it with it someone who is equally keen to participate.

Consent implies agreement to let someone do something to you, i really think that is the problem. i.e. you give consent to a doctor to put a camera up your bum.

not teasing the cat

Yes, the old saying about treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself. Teasing animals doesnt work as a metaphor because a lot of people apparently think that man become dogs when faced with a women in a tight dress and it's the womens fault of course for "cock teasing".

Anyway - interesting topic, i agree with PP that the issue is mostly social, it's probably unfair to expect high schools to sort it out. But basically making sure that people are aware that the other person has "agreed" to have sex with them is itself problematic IMO.