Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

[Tootickyandsnufkin]

I hope I explain this ok. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense, or if I'm expressing something obvious.

Consent comes up a lot on here/MN. Usually the discussion is around whether consent is confusing etc. Everyone is familiar. I hope isn't is prompting the usual debate. But I guess maybe that where it goes.

The idea of teaching "consent" to boys/young men bothers me. I wonder what it says about men that they have to be taught. Then i think about what else we teach our children. Thinking on the go....I guess we work to develop empathy in many areas but how do they develop naturally otherwise? isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence? Or is it consequences that shapes behaviour. Which of course there is generally a lack of in terms of non consensual sex/sexual acts.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

why is it that you think women should be given advice on how to stay safe from men?

I don't think that, and don't believe I have said that I did so am not sure why you would think it.

Why are you bothering to discuss it at all if you believe that male violence is inevitable and unstoppable?

I don't believe that violence is unstoppable, i have pointed out that trying to control male violence is something that the human beings have been grappling with for the whole of recorded history and probably long before and so the idea that men do nothing to stop other men being violent is silly.

Pointing out that some men are bad but deliberately and consciously framing it such that all men bear a collective responsibility for the problem of other men being bad is nothing more than an attempt to make all men feel shame for the actions of other men.

I believe sparrow has pretty much admitted that is her aim anyway and she is amazed that any women wants a relationship with any man - which says I think all I need to know really.

I would point out that many of the women posting here are in relationships with men

I don't know anything about the posters here, although some of them claim to be, others are definitely not. They probably regard their partners as some how anomalous and believe themselves lucky to have found a good one etc - that is commonly the sort of thing that would be said to explain it away.

For the record:

I do not think men are inherently or irredeemably violent
I do not think male violence is inevitable
I do not hate men or want to 'bash' them
I do not want men to be ashamed of being men
I do want men to recognise that the violence of their fellow men causes huge suffering in the world
I don't want men to shrug and say 'what can we do, just tell women to be careful'
I want men to say 'let's do something about this'

But men don't seem to want to do anything, which is very disappointing.

rather than hearing what anyone has to say.

This is odd - because i do hear what sparrow is saying. She's repeated it frequently "men do not do anything to stop male violence".

I've heard this and addressed it several times pointing out the lengths and struggles men go to to stop violence. Then the goalposts move - I am saying that men are irredeemably violent and I'm the one who hates men. We're married to men some of us you know etc.

Tooticky I think a lot about my sons and how I want to try and influence them as they grow up. It's a very small contribution to our future society but it is one that I have the most influence over. I have high expectations of them, I don't think that violence is inevitable for them. I would hope they will be able to put that across to other men that they meet. If they see women as fully equal, by default, then that will be a good start.

You've said nothing about the 'lengths and struggles' growapear. You've expressed annoyance at having to cross the road FFS! The military is an absolutely ridiculous example of stopping male violence - the military trains men to be more violent in a more efficient manner so that men can carry on being violent in an organised way while getting paid for it - how is that stopping male violence??

I think the discussion is going in circles here. Male rape/harrassment/violence is a problem which affects women in high numbers across the world. Yet, most men are not bad persons and many want solutions to said issues. Just talking about how men shouldn't rape, etc, won't solve it completely, at least because there's just too many millions of people in the world, so no matter what you do, some men will inevitably become rapists, harrassers, etc. Men should definitely help fighting the problem, but I can't see men controlling all other men's behaviour and decisions, because they are not a 'collective being'. There's demonstrations about rape to pressure politicians to do something more about it, but that doesn't seem enough. Solutions like women-only spaces to fight harrassment where it is more common is not of everyone's liking. The question is what specifically can people and particularly men do to prevent male violence from happening.

the military trains men to be more violent in a more efficient manner so that men can carry on being violent in an organised way while getting paid for it - how is that stopping male violence??

Because violently resisting (and being able to violently resist) other men who wish to impose a particular way of life of belief system upon you has been proven to be the most effective method of persuasion against organised violence thus far.

Speaking as a man, the idea that I could approach a group of aggressive men and say "come on now guys you need to dispense with this violent mind set" and everything would just be rosy is completely insane.

Men certainly had no problem controlling women's behaviour in the past, until women put a stop to it. I don't buy the bullshit that they can't control men's behaviour. I think they just don't really want to.

'Speaking as a man, the idea that I could approach a group of aggressive men and say "come on now guys you need to dispense with this violent mind set" and everything would just be rosy is completely insane.'

Yes it is insane, which is why I never suggested it.

growapear if you really want to address the issue of male violence then what you could have done right at the beginning of the thread is to listen and engage. Instead you've posted pages and pages of NAMALT, nit picking argumentative posts which seem to suggest you don't think that anything anyone says here is of worth. Which suggests that you're not really interested in addressing anything.

Here are some things you could do. Do you have any male friends? You could have a conversation with them about any of the recent news stories that relate to male violence and women. See what their attitudes are, and challenge anyone who has a sexist or misogynistic response. You could write to your MP to express your support for issues around domestic violence, or support for rape victims as these issues arise in national politics. If you can afford it you could support women's aid/rape crisis or similar, and tell everyone on your social media that you are. I'm sure I could think of more. What do you think about those ideas? Can you think of any better ones?

Well said, speak.

I have no intention of telling growapear what he can do. He's not as stupid as he makes himself out to be here, he knows full well there are hundreds of things he could do. But they all involve effort/inconvenience for him so he doesn't want to do them. He'd rather just say there's no point in even talking about it. It's as simple as that. In an earlier post he reckoned I should be giving women information about how to stay safe. Because of course, as a woman, I should be doing the work of informing women about the work they need to do to prevent violence. Because men shouldn't be expected to do any work, ever.

It also makes me wonder if men like growapear actually believe that women are to blame for male violence, as in, women cause it so women should prevent it?

Sparrow

I said that if you really felt the danger all men pose to women was as grave as you seem to think it is, then it would be sensible to advise women to avoid entering relationships with men. You actually kind of agreed with this as you expressed your amazement that women have relationships with men at all. At no time have I ever suggested any victim of violence has ever caused or is to blame for it, so really not sure where you get that idea from. If on the other hand i spent my spare time telling people how dangerous an activity was (in this case apparently being near any men) then again i ask what use that information ? The point being it isn't information - it is intended to shame and demonise all men.

Speak

If I felt that men were a massive threat to women, and believed that the plight of women in our society were a massive issue then I would be inclined to do just that. Most of the women I know are in well paid professional jobs and are doing pretty well, they would acknowledge this themselves and don't apparently go around wishing they had been born men because men have it so much better than they do.

As it happens I do give a lot of my money to charity and I spend my spare time helping organisations that I think need help. I manage to do this without demonising half the population and telling them they ought to be ashamed of themselves for not doing more.

So if I understand you correctly you aren't concerned at all about male violence towards women and so you don't do any of the things I mentioned to support that cause. This is based on the fact that the women you know don't appear to you to have had any issues.

'If I felt that men were a massive threat to women, and believed that the plight of women in our society were a massive issue then I would be inclined to do just that. Most of the women I know are in well paid professional jobs and are doing pretty well, they would acknowledge this themselves and don't apparently go around wishing they had been born men because men have it so much better than they do.'

Wow.

So you don't feel the fact that 85,000+ women are raped in the UK every year is a massive issue? What is it then?

How else is one supposed to form an opinion about the best use of their resources and time if not that which they directly observe ? Just blindly do what someone on an internet forum tells them ? As you are no doubt aware feminist analysis is not terribly popular at the moment, this however does not appear to have caused you to doubt in any way I can see the veracity it all.

So you only accept what you can directly observe? Does this apply to all aspects of your life and decision making?

'How else is one supposed to form an opinion about the best use of their resources and time if not that which they directly observe ?'

How about engaging with the news every now and again?

Why would I care more about women being assaulted than men ? Why do you care more about women being assaulted then men ?

Who said you had to care more? You don't seem to care at all.

For the same reason that people generally worry more about children being assaulted by adults, than about adults assaulting adults. Because there is an imbalance of power, and in most situations a woman is weaker and smaller than a man, therefore the potential for harm is greater.

I'm in a professional well paid job. I've no doubt I appear fine to colleagues and acquaintances. I've still been a victim of domestic violence, rape and sexual assault and countless instances of sexual harassment.

Caring at all would be a start. You've said it doesn't happen because you haven't directly observed it.

And you think that demonising all men is likely to make men inclined to care more about the harm other men do to women rather than the harm they do to each other ?

You've said it doesn't happen because you haven't directly observed it

No i didn't. I said most to the women I knew did not appear to be in any need of help or aid from me.