Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

[Tootickyandsnufkin]

I hope I explain this ok. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense, or if I'm expressing something obvious.

Consent comes up a lot on here/MN. Usually the discussion is around whether consent is confusing etc. Everyone is familiar. I hope isn't is prompting the usual debate. But I guess maybe that where it goes.

The idea of teaching "consent" to boys/young men bothers me. I wonder what it says about men that they have to be taught. Then i think about what else we teach our children. Thinking on the go....I guess we work to develop empathy in many areas but how do they develop naturally otherwise? isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence? Or is it consequences that shapes behaviour. Which of course there is generally a lack of in terms of non consensual sex/sexual acts.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

So because most of the women you know haven't said to you that they have experienced male violence and asked you to help them, you don't think there's a problem?

I didn't say I didn't think male violence was a problem or an issue. I have a daughter so of course I worry about her. I also have a son. I don't worry less about him because he is a boy.

But enough about me. Why do you speak care more about violence against women than you do about violence against boys/other men ? You didn't answer.

I'm not 'demonising' anyone, I'm stating a fact. Men can accept that fact and do something about it, or use their hurt feelings as an excuse to do nothing. You seem to favour the hurt feelings, do nothing route.

This is a thread about sexual violence against women on a feminist board. Therefore I'm talking about violence against women.

I think on some level I maybe do care more about violence against women purely on the grounds that it is more deep rooted, and more likely to be written off as a fuss about nothing.

If a man is assaulted and reports it, he is generally going to be taken seriously. If a women is groped and manhandled, even in public and in front of witnesses, it will often be dismissed as a misunderstanding. I think that is fairly worrying. And the assumption seems to be that women lie, until proven otherwise.

I said most to the women I knew did not appear to be in any need of help or aid from me.

But of course the did not appear is crucial. Most likely you don't have a clue what's happening regarding domestic violence/abuse.

Unless you disbelieve the stats you know that's a pointless approach. Perhaps particularly so for you as I can't imagine you would be an obvious person to turn to for help.

I care about male violence against men just about as much as you care about male violence against women growapear :)

I care about them both, I don't think I've said I care more about one or the other. I care about them in different ways for different reasons. I'd like a reduction in all male violence tbh.

I'm not 'demonising' anyone, I'm stating a fact

You are stating a fact that is pointlessly abstract and by your own admission, a fact everyone already knows. It serves no useful purpose other than to try and guilt or shame men into feeling that they are responsible for something that they are not.

I'm sorry you feel shame and guilt about how violent your sex is.

Now what are you going to do to stop it?

I care about them both, I don't think I've said I care more about one or the other.

Would you care to do so now ?

Did you read the whole of that post or just the first part?

xeno

That's just it though, i don't feel any guilt or shame about the actions of other men at all. So see me as being helpful in pointing out that what I perceive to be the thinly veiled hatred you have for men as being something that makes someone who would otherwise be an ally reluctant to engage with feminism.

Perhaps it's you who needs to re read Speak. You said you did not think you had said which one you cared more about. So i asked if you would now say which one you care more about (although i guess it is obvious).

I said I cared about them both in different ways and for different reasons. I don't think it's possible or helpful to try and say which I care about most. And as I said I'd like a reduction in all male violence. Caring about one aspect doesn't mean I can't care about another aspect and take actions to address both.

I think a reduction in male violence would be nice. I think expecting that men will react positively to the language used on this forum and elsewhere is misguided and that this can be clearly seen everywhere you see what counts as feminist analysis given a public airing. This does not mean that "men hate women" as seems to be commonly believed.

It's not helpful, grow. It's goady.

Grow

Given that you don't really give a fuck what you could personally do as a small step to counter a culture of male violence against women or think you should do it, what is the reason for your continuing presence on this thread? If not to be goady?

Ok, so women need to be careful to be nice to men if they expect them to take an interest in male violence towards women. We mustn't get cross about it, or be as careless as to fail to moderate our tone.

Oh well that's me told. I'll leave you to it then.

I care not either way. Just asking what I think is a reasonable question.

careless as to fail to moderate our tone.

As i have stated now umpteen times, it's a lot more than a little slip up in your wording. Anyway - the discussion has been fairly good natured I feel so I will say thank you and bye for now.

I'm sure there are lots of places on the Internet where you'll get an enthusiastic reception for your views Grow.

Ah, I see your problem.

You feel guilt and shame about your own actions but are projecting that onto us. For the record, I don't hate men. I don't even hate men as a class. You need to stop being so emotional.

You hate women though, it oozes through your every statement. I also get the impression that you're not keen on men either.

I don't hate men either. I know very many fantastic men and some arseholes. I know very many fantastic women and some arseholes too. It's all quite simple.

But as an overall group of people, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be harmed by men than by women. And men are overwhelmingly more likely to be harmed by men than by women. Therefore it's not man hating to want to tackle the issue of male violence.