Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

[Tootickyandsnufkin]

I hope I explain this ok. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense, or if I'm expressing something obvious.

Consent comes up a lot on here/MN. Usually the discussion is around whether consent is confusing etc. Everyone is familiar. I hope isn't is prompting the usual debate. But I guess maybe that where it goes.

The idea of teaching "consent" to boys/young men bothers me. I wonder what it says about men that they have to be taught. Then i think about what else we teach our children. Thinking on the go....I guess we work to develop empathy in many areas but how do they develop naturally otherwise? isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence? Or is it consequences that shapes behaviour. Which of course there is generally a lack of in terms of non consensual sex/sexual acts.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

'I think expecting that men will react positively to the language used on this forum and elsewhere is misguided and that this can be clearly seen everywhere you see what counts as feminist analysis given a public airing. This does not mean that "men hate women" as seems to be commonly believed.'

There it is a nutshell. If women point out a fact about men, men are going to get the hump and turn their backs on women as they are raped and murdered. But that's doesn't mean men hate women, no. Because doing nothing about women being raped and murdered means nothing at all.

But when women do something hideous and heinous like talk about men in way that gives them hurty feelings, well then that definitely means women hate men. Diddums.

I didn't say i had "hurty" feelings did I ? If you think the tone of this forum is one of positivity and demonstrates a love of men and a desire to help them then you are deluded.

Xeno

It's so obvious you hate men it's comical that you try to project your hatred on to others to justify it.

growapear This thread was started by Too because she has young sons and wanted to discuss whether sexual consent needs to be taught or whether right and wrong in this area is inherent.

She loves her sons and doesn't like the thought that they'd ever have the potential to comit this kind of crime.

Most posters replied that education on this subject is very important for both boys and girls.

Like you I have a son and a daughter. My husband and I are already teaching my DD she has a right to bodily autonomy and are already teaching my son that he does not have the right to touch her/take her things etc just because he's physically strong and therefore can.

That's not victimising our DD. It's not demonising our DS. It's just good parenting.

I also teach my children that stealing is wrong, even if you won't get caught. It doesn't mean I think they are thieves.

I also teach my children to stand up for themselves and others. To challenge bullying, sexism, racism and homophobia. To intervene when safe and get help when not.

Do you really disagree with the approach I've outlined?

Do you really think I'm a man hater who demonises boys and young men?

Yet again I find it bizarre when you say that this forum doesn't display a 'lovely of men' as though that's an awful thing, when we're talking about men raping and murdering women. You're actually saying that we should be concerned about how much love we're displaying?? Do you realise what a dick that makes you look?

That should say 'love of men' obv

growapear do you go on conservation websites trying to save rhinos and demand they should really be talking about tigers? Or go on baking websites and bemoan the lack of discussions on the topic of bicycle repair? I mean really this is feminism women's rights forum so it should come as no earth shattering shock women's issues are discussed here.

Why precisely should we discuss men's issues in a feminist forum?

Coleman

Of course I don't think you hate men given what you have posted although I do note that what you posted goes along with the wider general theme in todays society of teaching the girl all the things she can do while the boy is told what he can't do. Perhaps the dynamic between the siblings motivated this, I would hope so rather than you just telling him it because he is a boy.

Sparrow

You're actually saying that we should be concerned about how much love we're displaying?? Do you realise what a dick that makes you look?

I believe someone expected it to be believed that your motivation was to help boys and men rather than bleat on about what bastards and dicks they are, but if that floats your boat and you think it will help things, knock yourself out.

I will help boys and men just as much as they help girls and women. How about that?

Sparrow

So you want a battle of the sexes ? This is very 1970's.

"If you weren't so shrill/man-hating/rude/opinionated/extreme I would be your ally. But as it is, with you the way you are, I can't get on board with anything you say Maybe if you were a bit nicer?".

It's never true. Allies are allies. I think Milo Yiannopoulis is an arse but I'm still an ally for LGB rights. Richard Dawkins pisses me right off, but I'm still an ally for secularism. Focusing on how the behaviour of individuals within a movement should be different is pretty much always just a way to shut them down when you don't like what they're saying. Due to socialisation, it often works quite well on women.

So when you say you could be a feminist ally if we weren't such a bunch of manhaters, growapear, I say pants on FIRE.

growapear I'm teaching him that because he is, although younger, taller and considerably stronger than her.

Parenting is targeted to the needs of the child, she gets other lessons.

My DS is a tall, good looking, highly intelligent, athletic, naturally charming, white middle class male. He has every advantage in the world. It's our job as parents to help him make the most of those advantages to help him grow into a fine man.

Part of being a fine man is understanding the perspectives of those without those advantages and gifts.

So just as I would teach him not to take advantage of someone who is poor and uneducated, I'll teach him not to take advantage of someone who is physically powerless against him. Whether or not they happen to be male or female.

Funny Pooch because I do love Caitlin Moran, maybe it's just that you guys lack her eloquence, or maybe it's that you're not really that much like her. I dunno.

Coleman

He has every advantage in the world

No pressure then dude.

I'm teaching him that because he is, although younger, taller and considerably stronger than her

But he did actually touch her/attempt to take her stuff against her will right ? it sounds like you just sat him down and said "OK buster, you're a white privileged dude, and you have no right to touch your sister if she doesn't want you to".

growapear I've attempted to try and address you politely and to try to answer your questions helpfully but your responses, particularly the last one, do seem to be deliberately obstreperous.

I genuinely don't understand why you are approaching this discussion in this way - what do you hope to gain from it?

Come on, you know fine well that I didn't address my child in that way. I didn't even say it was because he was a boy. I simply said "it's not acceptable to keep tickling your sister when she says stop just because she can't make stop.

I said "don't grab your sister's food/toy/controller - it's unacceptable. Ask permission first and if she says "no" then it's a "no".

And he is under no pressure because he's a "white male dude". that's rather the point he is expected to behave well and work hard (just as my DD is) because those are the standards set within our family.

'So you want a battle of the sexes ? This is very 1970's.'

You're like a walking cliche. It would be funny except that I know you have a daughter. Poor girl.

Coleman

obstreperous - well that's boys for you eh ? :)

On the one hand you are making out as though you wouldn't parent a boy any differently to a girl in teaching the basics of polite interaction, but on the other you are saying that he needs to be taught to understand that he has a whole set of privileges your daughter does not. Would you tell an older female sibling who had the means to physically overpower the younger one exactly the same thing ? Its very likely your daughter will perform better academically than he will, but I assume you wont go telling either of them this ?

The general narrative that boys are privileged and have it easy and need to control their behaviour and girls need to be encouraged and nurtured to achieve their potential is harmful I think. But if you believe the same thing then that's great.

lol, there are no depths to which you will not sink eh sparrow.

I have a daughter. She's still quite young,but that doesn't stop me from telling her that when someone tells you to stop you stop. And that sometimes people don't want kisses and hugs and that's ok and most importantly you don't MAKE THEM. She went through a phase at abt 3 where she'd put boys and girls(so they couldn't escape) in a headlock to kiss them. I also tell her to be gentle,or not take advantage of her strength when playing with younger kids. Just because she can,doesn't mean she should.While learning about respecting others,it also teaches her that other should respect her.

Well seeing as growapear is ignoring me now I'll ignore him. I'd like to expand on an earlier point I made re: empathy. Reading novels increases and develops empathy so I would like to see children's books and stories where girl protagonists occupy leadership and protagonist positions and the stories are broad enough in appeal that little boys read them as avidly as little girls read Harry Potter.

To that end I have a project with a fantastical premise only the hook is hyperscience/engineering rather than magic. I was going to make the protagonist a little girl anyway, but I'm going to bump this up my list of projects to work on. I just need to land on a decision over theme/setting and I'll be away.

growapear

My DS does have societal and cultural privileges that my DD doesn't have.

However my DD as an educated, middle class white woman also has been born into privilege.

I don't believe that it's harmful to make either of them aware of that. Or to teach them that they can use their privilege to speak out for those that don't have the same advantages.

Privilege doesn't mean "you have it easy" but it does mean you might have less roadblocks thrown in your way.

I teach both my children to control their behaviour. I set high standards.

I encourage and nurture both my children to reach their highest potential to find their talents and build on them.

It's not one or the other you know. I can encourage both simultaneously.

As for educational attainment, as it happens he's ahead of her at the moment. I tell them that we all have different gifts and that hard work and a good attitude helps us attain our goals.

You can be as rude to me as you like Growapear, I'm not going to lose my temper.

Feminism is about making society equal for women, it's not about bringing men down.

The general narrative that boys are privileged and have it easy and need to control their behaviour and girls need to be encouraged and nurtured to achieve their potential is harmful I think.

Do you think it equally harmful when girls are told from a young age that they have to modify their behaviour? Eg not be assertive because no one likes a girl who is bossy. Not dress in a particular way because it's distracting for boys. Not walk alone because if she comes to harm it will be her own fault for not taking sensible precautions?

By which I mean, women have had been made to modify their behaviour since forever. But the idea that men could perhaps modify their behaviour is somehow very offensive.

Coleman

The trouble with your privilege theory is that when young men grow up and discover that actually they can expect to do less well academically than their female peers, and the have less chance of going to uni than them, and will actually be probably paid less than women once they graduate (as things stand) - and you tell them that the women who are all actually ahead of them anyway - not only did much better than they did, but that they got there despite all the advantages those guys apparently have over them. Doesn't that strike you as odd ?

Privilege theory holds than men and women actually are not peers, because any woman your son encounters at uni should he go there, or in his professional career supposing he has one - actually had to work much harder than he did - go figure !

Treacle

I absolutely agree that telling girls they should watch how they dress and not be assertive is entirely wrong and I would strongly criticise anyone who said they should.

growapear my son is ultimately responsible for his own destiny.

He won't do less well than his female peers unless he doesn't study and messes about in class.

He won't have less chance of getting into university if he has produced the required results, built an interesting CV and gives a mature and thoughtful interview.

He won't earn less if he works hard at work and impresses his employers.

My DH works in a very male dominated industry. He actively supports the women's forum at his firm and actively mentors young female graduates because he finds it appalling that in 2017 Senior female Executives are still very rare in his industry. He celebrates when a young woman flies up the ranks - he sees it as a positive sign. He is in no way threatened by it. That's because he's very good at his job.

His colleague who is a bit rubbish is deeply offended by high achieving, hard working women.

Coleman

Strange that when young women appear to being doing significantly better than young men it's all about individuals all of a sudden.