Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

*God complex

Flipping autocorrect! *Herschel

Me too SuburbanRhonda. I thought that was well edited. Lou's story was so heartbreaking and obviously took so much courage to tell and then you had the transman cheerfully saying "well there aren't that many so who gives a fuck". It was shocking.

I'm glad they mentioned that poor Lou had to tell her story anonymously due to death threats and online abuse.

That woman priest came across very badly with all her "do you want your kid to DIE, do you, do you, huh? you do don't you".

The doctor who said GRS was like rebirthing patients seemed to have a god complex

YY. He totally gave himself away. I've read stuff about him before and he's creepily enthusiastic about medically transing minors.

And the way he implied that it made him feel good about himself to experience the "rebirthing" was quite revolting.

The transman also seemed to be completely unaware of the huge irony of saying "well they're only a minority so fuck them" while at the same time being a campaigner for the rights and interests of a tiny minority of the general population...

The transman was almost incredulous that anyone would actually give a shit about people who desist.

The hypocrisy of the transman saying that only a few percent regret transing when only moments before he was dismissing the 80% of children that grow up to not have gender dysphoria and that we should be looking at the 20% of children that 'persist' was astounding!!

I loved Prof Gina Ripon, she spoke brilliantly.

They couldn't give a shit what happens to most of those wrongly transed children and what emotional trauma they might go through in being pushed down a path that they discover is wrong for them. I've heard transactivists pretty much write them off as collateral damage for their glorious cause.

Not on subject, but I bet Gina Ripon is the sister of Angela, they look so similar

I don't know how obvious it would be to a viewer unfamiliar with the subject of transing children but I thought it was very revelatory that Zucker and his "side" referred to the children as "having gender dysphoria" whilst the transing people referred to them as "trans" as though it was a foregone conclusion that gender dysphoria = trans.

One thing they did fail to talk about is the self fulfilling prophecy nature of the transing of children. Social transition is not benign as it sets a child on a route - you are telling them they must be trans/the opposite sex.

I felt very sorry for the 9 year old boy who seemed to be parroting an adult with his talk of his "journey" and the "pieces of his puzzle". You could practically hear the parents voice. Plus he seemed to mix up whether he wanted to be a boy or a girl.

And I was shocked by the 17 year old who had had his penis removed and the narrator describing him as "a woman" - a 17 year old is not a woman (or a man) they are a child. I felt it was a bit of a cover up of the fact that this child had had surgery so young by describing them in adult terms.

Agree that it was breathtaking how experiences like Lou's were dismissed. Also that poor child at the end who clearly didn't have a clue about what the "hard time" involved, just as Lou hadn't.

Have been on twitter and as a bisexual woman I'm really disappointed by the things that Stonewall have been tweeting about the dangerous narratives the programme portrayed. I've replied to them and hope I don't get dragged into anything but ensuring people are trans and not gay but unable to accept it is surely the right approach and Stonewall should be able to support people in both positions.

Found this article about Zucker too. It's long but has some interesting background on his 'discrediting'.

nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

How difficult must it be to cope with all the post-operative stuff at such a young age. The manual dilation of an artificially created vagina for hours a day for years, the lubrication etc... all at the age of 18. I just feel really uncomfortable when they represent transitioning as being about wafting around in dresses and shots of make-up application when it is a brutal process. I can't help feeling that the mastectomies and penectomies are sometimes THE most extreme manifestations of self-harm. I understand that for some all this is preferable to the living hell of gender dysphoria but it does tend to get glossed over a lot when talking about unquestioningly supporting your 9 year old on their 'journey'. I thought it was a great documentary and I think there should be some embarrassed people amongst the 10000+ people who signed that petition to have the programme pulled. By all means disagree, comment and debate on the issues it raised NOW once you've seen it but to have railed against it so vociferously before having watched it was ridiculous and alarming. I almost wept when the neuro scientist said we're going back to the 17th and 18th centuries when we start talking about male and female brains.

Re Stonewall, I apologise if this is an ignorant question but how did trans become lumped together with lesbian/bi/gay anyway?

Good point about the glossing over. It's all rainbows, make up and summer camp if you listen to the genderists.

It was good that they did show brief images of surgery. Plus there was an excellent moment showing a child having drugs injected into their leg and the voiceover said something along the lines of transing being about "accepting the child for who they are". Um, ok, why are you injecting something into them that is going to change them then?!

"Re Stonewall, I apologise if this is an ignorant question but how did trans become lumped together with lesbian/bi/gay anyway?"

It only happened relatively recently as far as Stonewall is concerned, I assume because it was thought that the trans struggle against transphobia was similar to LGB+ struggle against homophobia and better to campaign and support together than separately. It was when they appointed a new chief exec that the change happened from an exclusively sexuality to a gender and sexuality rights organisation.

Having then felt that they took too long to embrace the trans agenda, Stonewall do seem now to be trying to make up for lost time. Ruth Hunt (chief exec) apologised to the trans community for the time taken to include them in the organisation:

www.divamag.co.uk/category/news/stonewall-“we-apologise-to-trans-people-for-the-harm-we-have-caused”.aspx

Anyway, turns out that the press release/blog she wrote about the programme was written without watching the episode and so I wonder what they'll say tomorrow?

Link fail

www.divamag.co.uk/category/news/stonewall-“we-apologise-to-trans-people-for-the-harm-we-have-caused”.aspx

Gah - twice. I'm on the app. Not going to try again.

Gina Rippon does look like Angela Rippon - hugely!

Thanks tygr. So it was only in 2015. It has often puzzled me because I tend to think that sexuality is different to gender dysphoria.

Well the second half was a lot better. Sorry for commenting in outrage before I'd seen it all...

The dad of the girl who decided not to transition was a bit infuriating. He "refused to treat her differently"? Oh yes, because obviously you treat sons and daughters completely differently... I assume that was part of the problem. And she accepted herself by deciding she wanted to wear "girls clothes".... argh. Good on her for speaking out though, I hope she doesn't get harmed as a result of this. "Lou" even more so.

This probably sounds wrong but I felt like I wanted to pay for Lou to have re-feminising cosmetic surgery. (If I had the money I might actually think about it.) That doesn't exactly sit right with me either, but it was so sad the way she felt about her body after regretting surgery. It made me wonder about reassignment surgery on the NHS... I gather it's very hard to get (?) but wondered whether detransitioning surgery was even more so? I'm struggling to put it into words, but something seems very off about campaigning for healthy bodies to be surgically altered for one group due to psychological distress, whilst other's (often women's) psychological distress at their bodies doesn't count for much, even if it causes physical pain... erm... not putting this very well... stuff like damage caused by birthing babies, or needing labiaplasty because it's causing medical problems...

That woman who was media scapegoated for having breast implants on the NHS - she had entirely flat breasts and was probably very dysphoric herself, yet she was vilified as a drain on resources. But trans women get fake breasts on the NHS and trans men have theirs removed and they are brave soldiers. It's hypocritical. Likewise menopausal women have to stop taking HRT at a certain age even if they want to continue despite the risks but trans women are on it for life apparently...

I'd love to see a high profile older woman come out fighting about the HRT thing. It's such a clear example of women being treated as second class citizens.