Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

Just like any woman who objects to males being around as she comes out of the gym showers wearing a towel?

My gym has individual shower cubicles but it would be impossible to dress in one. The only alternative would be using the disabled facilities.

Ailynn

I suppose maybe it could be a similar level of concern for a straight woman if a lesbian entered the bathroom maybe?

I'm echoing Galla above. Lesbians being attracted to women is often used to justify the presence of a man who is attracted to women.

It simply is not the same. I do wish people would stop thinking it was. Women simply don't have the same level of male pattern violence. The objectification of women is not the same as being attracted to them.

I, and all women, have been sharing our bathrooms with lesbians all our lives. It's simply not a problem. The presence of a male, not only alters the dynamic it adds a completely different element. Whether you think it's predatory, threatening, or just downright different. Are all men threatening? No, course they aren't. But firstly I don't really wish to get changed in front of them, and secondly we have no way of telling.

The very fact that there are demands of this nature being made, automatically leads to the questioning of why? If it's just validation, it's a fairly shit reason as far as women are concerned. And if it's more than that, it's a definite no from me!

But thanks for posting. I don't think anyone reading your post could fail to have compassion for your situation. And, it has to be said, it goes a long way to seeing why opinion on this issue is fairly polarised. I don't see you as either a threat or someone to be excluded (bathrooms excepted, for all the reasons above). If the TRAs had the same outlook as you, the problem will simply disappear.

The only thing I would question is how many people have surgery. From statistics that I have read, they are the minority, not the majority. Which, again, wouldn't matter if there wasn't the insistence on appropriating women's spaces.

I'm glad you are well on the road to finding peace with yourself and I wish you all the luck.

Ailynn You've taken a lot of time to post on this thread and your answers have been very interesting so thanks for taking so much time

I actually believe the term “trans woman” is completely appropriate in most cases, and I do believe a distinction is important

No arguments there :)

Thank you everyone! I definitely want it known that I myself absolutely agree that it's ridiculous for straight women to be worried any time a lesbian would enter the bathroom as a possible predator. It's preposterous! The reason I included that before (and I meant to go into detail and forgot to), was that back when I was in school, there was a female Gym Class teacher who the entire school talked about being lesbian, and I would hear stories about how she would hang around way too long in the bathroom and watching all the girls in the locker room. It creeped them out, understandably. This is an insanely rare case, IF it was ever true at all. Rumors spread can be so damaging, and I hope that this teacher never learned what the girls were saying about her if it was false.

I understand the worry, both for women and their little girls. I used to have an intense fear of bullies, and nearly any trans woman has. I believe that's the main concern for transgender people...for trans men, they would understandably make women uncomfortable in a woman's bathroom due to them usually being indistinguishable from a person born physically male. Trans women worry about both bathrooms in a lot of cases...I know that I myself was incredibly of other ladies seeing me in the women's bathroom while at a convention last year, as the bathrooms were always full and I didn't want them feeling nervous or angry (I'm 5'10" with a larger frame, and just cannot currently come across as born female, although I HOPE that changes someday). On the other hand, I'm absolutely terrified of men seeing me in the men's room, because I've known the fear of being tormented or beaten before even when presenting as male.

With as many transgender people who desire to change their genitalia to match their gender identity, the numbers of those who have had it done are minimal. It's simply for most people the ultimate dream that they HOPE for, but are worried may never be able to achieve. I doubt I would ever have enough money for it even saving up for a lifetime. Still, I hold onto the hope that some beautiful day, I can be rid of what has been a lifelong reminder that I am different than most everyone else in my life, and often a source of scorn.

As regards the zebra finch:

Neural, not gonadal, origin of brain sex differences in a gynandromorphic finch.
Agate RJ1, Grisham W, Wade J, Mann S, Wingfield J, Schanen C, Palotie A, Arnold AP.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Apr 15;100(8):4873-8.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672961/
dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0636925100

I got there from this article:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4132582/

Thanks Some!

Ailynn, once again your post has been insightful and gracious. I agree with others that the thought of changing in front of lesbians does not bother me at all but changing in front of a man (even one I knew well) would make me uncomfortable. I genuinely don't know what the solution is for transwomen. I am sure the vast majority have no more intent to assault a woman any more than the rest of us but there does seem to be research (from what I've read and happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) that even those who have transitioned medically still follow male patterns of criminal behaviour in terms of crimes perpetrated rather than following female patterns of offending. Given this, it seems to me that in changing facilities that are closed off (I.e. Not cubicles on the poolside for example) there needs to be a space for women to change with other women only. However, it does not sit well with me then that transwomen such as Ailynn may face male violence if using "male" changing rooms. I guess it's then the solution of least risk for the highest number of people and potentially exposing some to risk of harm. As I say, at an individual level this seems unsatisfactory but I really don't know what the solution is.

There most likely haven't been many further studies along those lines since about 2005 because by then the point had already been made: Dr Money (and Dr Zucker) were wrong: your gender identity is hardwired into your brain and already in place by the time you're born, and you can't arbitrarily reassign babies to another sex and expect it to work.

OK. A thought experiment. Lets take 50 male babies and 50 female babies. Separate them from the world as we know it and raise them with total 'gender neutrality'..when they hit say 25...would they know any differences between each other besides purely biological (eg, males have one body, females the other...and so on)

If not. How can 'gender identity' be hardwired into brains since birth?

If you think they would know any differences, what differences, and how would they know this?

We thought that one of our sports teachers was a lesbian and liked watching the girls get changed when I was in high school, too. Looking back, it was entirely because she had short hair and was, well, sporty. She was actually a lovely and not at all creepy person and she gave me some help towards the end of my school days which I've always appreciated. Around that time I met her with her husband out of school and, shock horror, when she didn't have to be dressed in a tracksuit to teach sport, she looked entirely different (dress and make up).

I think "The PE teacher's a lesbian!! And a creep!!" is one of those silly urban myths teenage girls make up and share.

We also had a "lesbian" PE teacher, who wasn't a lesbian at all. Not that it would have mattered if she was of course. They were quite hot on making sure we had naked showers though. Luckily this was late 80s early 90s so there were no female-identifying males there!

We had two gym teachers who were both lesbians. and yes we were in that group who had to run through a communal shower whilst being supervised.

we all knew it, it was a little but, hand on heart, had those teachers been male, it would've felt much worse, and entirely different.

Perhaps it's to do with power, or domination, expectation? I don't really know, all I can say is in a situation where there was someone who may have been viewing me from an 'aesthetic' point of view the fact that they were women just wasn't as bad.

Does anyone else remember this?

I can see why lesbian teenagers are keen to become transmen and identify out of the lesbian category, if schools are anything like they were in my day (long ago). The use of "lesbian" as an insult for female PE teachers seems fairly common. It must be awful to hear that if you actually are a lesbian teenager. The word is often thrown around as an insult ime

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-38638487

"Ciera Taylor was 14 when she told her parents she was born in the wrong body and wanted to live as a girl. Now aged 16, she tells BBC News how her family and schoolfriends have coped with her momentous decision."

rose

I've set to record that on BBC1 tonight at 7:30. Although the blurb doesn't mention this story?

I find it very concerning that so many youngsters are coming out as trans. If gender dysphoria is so prevalent why isn't the medical world trying to find out why? Surely no scientists are really buying the 'Born in the wrong body' narrative? What is the evidence?

And if youngsters are transitioning for social reasons why are we changing laws and language to accommodate it?

agingrunner "I can see why lesbian teenagers are keen to become transmen and identify out of the lesbian category, if schools are anything like they were in my day (long ago). The use of "lesbian" as an insult for female PE teachers seems fairly common. It must be awful to hear that if you actually are a lesbian teenager. The word is often thrown around as an insult ime"

As the mother of a teenage lesbian I am thankful to say that (at her school at least) things have changed. DD and her ex-girlfriend did have some comments from other teens suggesting that maybe they were trans rather than gay but once they said that they weren't then that stopped and DD's general school (and outside school) experience has been supportive.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38761068

And another piece about a young transwoman Gwen. Does this fall under news? Does the BBC do lots of articles on someones politics/feelings/opinion? That's two young trans voices in 3 days.

I do feel for these 2 young people and i probably wouldn't have a problem with them being lumped in with females and i truly hope they are happy and safe - then i think of the sports issue and other more concerning ones. Why did TAs have to start bullying and demanding everything - and some. I don't want these young kids to pay the price but i hate being manipulated and bullied into staying quiet and having to accept what to me is basically a delusional ideology. I already made my mind up about God and Jesus - trans ideology just seems more of the same dogma.

And i wonder if the BBC will let transwomen like late transitioning fetishists on Twitter demanding access to female areas - have an equal voice.

So the BBC is running an agony aunt column for trans now. How dare they? How dare Gwen and Becky give advice to someone about their 8 yr old trans sister? I am so angry. And so upset that BBC, after showing such an excellent documentary, has gone back to kowtowing to trans

What is being "a woman" beyond cosmetic things like body shape, make-up and high heels?
"After spending time on both sides of the 'gender line', I can confidently say that there is really no quality that, in a vacuum, makes a person a man or a woman.
"A woman to me is a culmination of her experiences, the people in her life, the choices she makes, everything that has led her to where she is today
"Sometimes she's born in a male body like I was, but our histories do not define us. I refuse to be limited by mine in the same way people do not want their past crimes or disabilities or embarrassments to define who they are today

So a woman's lived experience has no meaning. Any experience becomes a woman's if the person living it self defines as a woman. We are gone.

The DM done a trans critical piece today, outraged over expectant mothers being called into people.

They also dropped into the article the price of transition on the NHS, which will get outraged of Tunbridge Wells pinging off emails 10 to the dozen.

*have done

Sorry, Charlie, where's that quote from? I've gone back 3 pages and checked OP but I can't find it.

Here we go Prawn. It's from Gwen & Becky's advice page.

About halfway down.

Sorry, I should have said. Thanks Empress.

Datun They also dropped into the article the price of transition on the NHS, which will get outraged of Tunbridge Wells pinging off emails 10 to the dozen.

I'm not "outrgaed of Tunbridge Wells" but it seems astonishing and awful if the NHS is paying for transitions (cosmetic surgery fgs!) whilst other stuff isn't funded. Traumatised after abuse - oh dear, no therapy for you, it's been cut. Believe your perfectly healthy body is wrong and you should look like the opposite sex - sure, we'll fund hormones (that may well harm you) and surgery. WTF?

Does anyone know how many "transition" operations are actually performed? I was previously under the impression it was quite hard to get...