Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

I'll just leave this here:

4thwavenow.com/2017/01/26/shriveled-raisins-the-bitter-harvest-of-affirmative-care/#comments

This is very informative on the problem of hormone treatment causing sterility if commenced in childhood, and the hypocrisy of adult transactivists )with biological children) advocating such treatment

Some sterling examples of mental gynastics here. (Link was shared by friend on FB.)

bbc

They are all so young

The fact that they could produce female monkeys with male brains just by prenatally exposing them to testosterone

That's not what the research found though. The research found that if you deliberately create intersex offspring by dosing pregnant females then you get offspring who have ambiguous genitalia and sexual behaviours that more closely align with the opposite sex. The research concluded this was due to neural development, I admit I didn't read to the end but I would think it far more likely that the offspring were producing more of the opposite sex hormone than would be usual which would account for opposite sexual behaviours.
Transgender people aren't intersex. I understand that you wish there was a scientific explanation for why you feel feminine or uncomfortable with your male bodies but this isn't it.
The vast majority of trans people have physical appearances including genitalia, and sex hormone levels commensurate with normal levels within their sex. The vast majority of trans people aren't even vaguely intersex.
It's possible that being a very feminine man or a very masculine woman (by which I mean the type of femininity or masculinity that is visible physically, skeletal structure, muscle and fat distribution etc) may fall somewhere on the intersex spectrum, I really don't know. However, without clear evidence of that (hormone levels, ambiguous genitalia, residual gonads) then it's simply not accurate to claim intersex as a condition. At best it's a guess. And a guess that may apply to a tiny minority of trans identifying people.

The only clear-cut case I know of really proper differences between male and female brains is in something like songbirds (okay, not a biologist, I'll admit). Cos there was a fascinating example of a bird they found where one half of the bird was female, the other half male:

"The discovery of a rare bilateral gynandromorphic zebra finch presented us with an opportunity to test this hypothesis, because cells on one half of its brain and body were genetically male and cells on the other half were genetically female."

The difference being male finches sing, and females don't. So not just the brain was different on the two sides, but also male plumage on one side of the body, female plumage on the other.

But as regards humans, recent research says that male and female brains aren't this simple. There are overlaps all over the place, and brains are a mosaic of male-like and female-like structures. But that doesn't mean that there are really maley male brains, and really femaley female brains, with some in between brains in the middle. Or that it's all somehow a continuum between 'proper' males and 'proper' females. We're all mostly in the overlap, from what I understand of the article.

As they said:

"For another, she says, the extreme variability of human brains undermines the justifications for single-sex education based on innate differences between males and females, and perhaps even our definitions of gender as a social category."

Which is basically what feminists have been saying for years, the social differences between being a man/boy and being a woman/girl are because we put them there, not because we are innately different in the head.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

Great article, ageingrunner but not the whole story. There is an understandable focus on the infertility and loss of sexual function caused by giving puberty blockers then hormones. But puberty affects the entire body - the brain as much as the genitals. We have no idea of the long-term effects of preventing people from ever going through it. Puberty blockers were developed & tested for use on children with precocious puberty, to postpone it until the normal age. They were never intended to prevent it forever.

Just checking to reiterate, yet again that there is no, zip, zero evidence of male or female brains. Nada. There is a fairly enormous corpus of evidence that brains are as sexed as livers.

That sounds like chimerism SomeDyke and sounds like a fascinating article, I'll see if I can dig it up properly. Thanks for posting about that!

And yes ItsAll that graphic pretty much sums up intersex conditions. I know a few intersex people and they (and their community) gets mightily pissed off when people try and co-opt their bodies to gratify their need to explain themselves.

I remember reading about that finch SomeDyke - really interesting case, but as you say, not much to do with humans. Humans are good at telling human males and females apart, so it's hard to think of us as basically identical in some ways, but other species would probably have to look pretty closely (or use smell) to tell us apart.

Ageing that Page on 4th wave now is shocking. As a woman, as a mother, but most of all as a doctor it is truly horrifying. What appears to be a complete disregard for the complex ethical issues here is extraordinary. Who decides what's in a child's best interest for such major and life changing treatment? What is pushing these medics to take such an approach? Yes there are always cavaliers who want to "advance" medicine and their own reputation as far as possible but on the whole we're usually a pretty cautious, and very evidence driven bunch. There just seems to be a total disconnect in this area and I'm struggling to get my head around it. I practice in a rural area and am yet to come across a transgender child professionally. Obviously a lot of the info there relates to clinics in the USA (or Canada?). I have never heard or seen any advice on this transition affirmative approach in the UK though I understand from another poster here that it is the attitude taken. Does anybody know how widespread this is in the UK? Is it largely London based?

There is a GP who does consultations over the phone, and then sends private prescriptions both for puberty blockers and synthetic hormones. I believe she is based in Wales. Her husband is also an MD, a paediatrician. Allegedly, they say he is an endocrinologist.

The town I grew up in (northern, rural, under 25k population) has 2 secondary schools with a combined student body of about 1.5k and the one my friend works at has at least 3 girls currently transitioning to living as boys. This just came up in conversation and she works in a specific subject area so wouldn't be aware necessarily of any other cases. I have friends who teach in London (where I live) but the subject has never come up, but I don't think it's more prevalent in London at all.

That sounds like an example of social contagion. It's an issue that needs a lot more research around transing of girls, but it's a known phenomenon regarding other behaviours. Suicide clusters for one.

Remember the poster who said there were 5 girls who all came out as trans at the same time in her teenage daughter's class who were bullying her lesbian daughter as she said she was only attracted to women.

Not RTFT but they've pulled the documentary here on BBC2 Wales. Has anyone else had it aired?

Has this been covered?

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/oral-arguments-begin-minnesota-case-mother-suing-her-transgender-child-n712396

"Oral arguments are set to begin Thursday for the lawsuit of a Minnesota woman who is suing her transgender teen daughter along with a variety of local school and health agencies.

Anmarie Calgaro's lawsuit alleges that healthcare providers treated her 17-year-old as an emancipated minor without her consent when the teen began receiving transgender medical and mental health services."

www.facebook.com/emily.gruenhagen/videos/10211272920685409/

"In June, 2015, without her knowledge, consent, or involvement, Anmarie Calgaro’s fifteen-year-old son obtained a “Notice of Emancipation” from Mid-Minnesota Legal Aid, a nonprofit agency that provides free legal services to low income people.
Using this document alone, state agencies and private services shut Anmarie out of every important physical, emotional, and educational decision her minor son was making. Suddenly and without notice, she no longer had access to his school or health records. Without her consent, the state issued him a state driver’s license and county health services approved housing and other county services.
A private health service began prescribing dangerous hormonal drugs to ‘transition’ him from male to female. This health service never consulted her, even though these controversial and largely untested drugs cause potentially irreversible effects and have unknown long-term risks. He was even prescribed narcotics from another health service. Clearly, Anmarie’s God-given and constitutionally protected parental rights have been violated. And her responsibilities to care for her son’s physical and emotional health and safety have been blocked by the actions of these agencies and services. She has been denied the chance to plead her case in court."

The effects on brain development from not allowing natural puberty are the most scary bit I think shiny and Poppy How is it ethical to produce sterile adults with the brains of children? And how sinister that some people apparently want to do this? Am I being paranoid to suspect the motives of such people? And adults discussing the orgasm and sexual function of children is just

Nothing about this shit is remotely ethical.

I was very shocked looking into Lupron. Because puberty blockers are talked about by the trans community and trans allies as this completely harmless reversible thing to allow a child to make the more serious decision to hormonally transition when old enough. But they aren't harmless, or necessarily reversible.

www.petition2congress.com/1902/investigation-lupron-side-effects-leuprolide-acetate

Some of the testimonials on the petition are horrifying. And they are advocating giving it to pubescent children for what, 5/6 years?

How is it ethical to produce sterile adults with the brains of children?

Well put.

• MyVisionsComeFromSoup: Thanks for the question! I want to say that, while I have always felt “not male”…I know that it’s not really correct to say “I feel completely female” as I stupidly said in my first post before I realized I couldn’t edit anything out. The main lesson I’ve learned here…it’s not a good idea for me to post in a public forum while groggy, because I usually will make embarrassing mistakes.

The last thing I want is to belittle what it means to be a woman. I cannot know exactly what it means to feel female, because as much as it pains me to admit it, I was not born in a female body. No matter how much I desire it, I will never be able to carry a child, or be a natural mother. At the same time, I know that even if a woman is unable to have children, she is no less a woman. As much as some trans activists fight for complete gender equality, and saying that “I may still have a penis, but I am still a woman”…I still believe it is fine and maybe preferable for people like me to be called “trans women.” It differentiates us from a person born female (other than the term “cis-gender”, which I don’t really care for.)

Sorry, I’m trailing off…basically, I feel I have a feminine spirit, and I am happiest when people perceive me that way. Portraying myself in that way makes me feel joyful, while trying to fit into a masculine world feels alien and depressing to me. I’m honestly not sure where I fit in anymore, but I’m not so worried anymore about needing to. I have a fairly large frame, and I know that no one is ever going to look at me and think I was born a little girl. I’m coming to grips with it, and becoming a stronger person in attempting to lower my expectations for my future. I’m not fighting to use women’s bathrooms, or certainly not locker rooms. It’s all too stressful for me, and I absolutely do not want anyone to feel uncomfortable if at all possible. If there is a single stall bathroom, that’s always the one I’m going to.

• ChocChocPorridge: Oh, absolutely! It’s very offensive to me when I hear people saying that women are supposed to be “prim and proper beauty queens.” Some of my favorite heroes are the women who go so strongly against those stereotypes! I cannot stand stereotypes at all, and I love it when people go against the unfair expectations others have for them just based on their sex or perceived gender. I just think people should be allowed to be who they want to be…and not have someone calling a woman “butch” if she isn’t perceived as feminine, or a man being called a “sissy” or worse when he appears effeminate. I don’t even like the terms “masculine” or “feminine”, as they themselves are a stereotype. The idea that a woman is just a “not-man” is horrifically insulting, and sadly…history has often shown so many men have thought exactly that way. :(

• Sulis87: Thanks for the comment! I absolutely agree - Gender stereotypes have been holding back civilization for far too long! My greatest hope is for TRUE gender equality in the near future…it’s certainly been long enough, hasn’t it? In addition, my opinion that anyone who thinks that “male privilege” is a false concept is an absolutely apathetic moron, completely devoid of any historical civil rights knowledge.

• RufusTheSpartacusReindeer: Thank you very much! :)

• ageingrunner: Thank you so very much! _ I am so thankful for the medicine that has changed my body more in line with how I always wanted it to be! This might be a little overdramatic, but it’s almost what I imagine it might be like for a person cursed to change into a werewolf, and then suddenly receive a cure to prevent or even reverse the unwanted changes. I was able to manage hiding my feelings easier before puberty started, and then suddenly every year I grew more and more horrified with the changes my body was going through. I had a panic attack when I saw my facial hair coming in, and hair growing on my chest. When things changed down below, I grew to despise them even more. Oh Lord, and my voice…the slow change from my regular voice to an ever-growing deeper one…I still remember crying when I heard my voice on a recording for the first time. I tried my best to not show my fears and distress at school or around my family…but, it was a living nightmare that continued on until I began medically transitioning last year. I know we all go through our own battles through puberty, but…other kids in school seemed okay through theirs, while I most certainly was not with my own.

I absolutely agree also about the gender stereotypes, and I completely understand how trans behavior can be seen as reinforcing them instead of challenging them. I suppose I’ve seen trans people of both types…some who embrace the stereotypes of their perceived gender in an attempt to be accepted as that sex, and then you see others who say “screw it” and throw stereotypes to the wind. I myself hate stereotypes, but then again, I have fallen into the trap of saying I feel “feminine” when she may just need to ask, what does being feminine really mean? Is it the opposite of masculine, and if so…what is masculinity truly? All I know for myself is the stereotype of masculinity is completely the opposite of how I feel, and I want no part of it…nor the genitalia that typically goes with it. (Sorry for TMI!)

• Datun: Thank you so much! I definitely agree that the stereotypes of femininity are in no way at all what makes a woman a woman. (My above replies go further into it.) Oh, and sorry…I had to look up AGP, as I was unfamiliar with that acronym. (I learned something new!) :) I believe Autogynophilia is usually associated with trans women who are attracted to other women, right? If so, I can see how that could be a bit concerning. I suppose maybe it could be a similar level of concern for a straight woman if a lesbian entered the bathroom maybe? I think a large factor may depend on how far along a trans woman is into her transition. From my own experience with medically transitioning, my “male equipment” down there was in no condition at all for intercourse (even if I ever wanted that…which I don’t.) For most trans women, it seems erections are (thankfully in my case) nearly impossible to achieve, and even if they wanted to, the skin is so much thinner that tearing is extremely easy. However, every transitioning trans woman can have a vastly different hormone regimen…so they are all going to be different. Another thing is a small few trans women can’t or don’t medically transition at all. (This is extremely rare from my experience, as most are dying to begin transition ASAP.)

I agree wholeheartedly on the need for being upfront and logical on all of this! So many people get their feelings hurt, then act out in ways that in turn hurt other peoples’ feelings, and so on. Some of the terminology bothers me, and the way some people are so demanding of being acknowledged. There are SO many people who are just like “Respect my feelings and opinions while I disrespect yours!” It’s ridiculous and unrealistic, and gets us all nowhere.

Thank you again for the awesome post! _ I absolutely stand with you against toxic masculinity, which absolutely DOES exist…no matter how much some people claim it doesn’t.

• CoteDAzur : Thank you! I agree with you on a lot of what you said! My response up above to MyVisionsComeFromSoup explains further my feelings on gender stereotypes and my dislike of them. A woman can be a warrior unmatched in strength, without a care in the world for what others find beautiful, having bulging muscles, a hairy body and short hair, or even facial hair. She is still beautiful and amazing for exactly what she is to me, because she is being true to herself. A man can be physically weaker and nurturing and pretty and all the things that are normally unfairly expected of women, and he is no less a “man” than anyone else. That is how I feel, and obviously…the majority of the world unfairly thinks otherwise.

I myself feel at my happiest when I am expressing my, for lack of a better term, “femininity.” I have no intention of ever demanding that I be called a woman instead of a trans woman, no matter how much I wish I had been born physically female. It’s important to have distinction I feel, and as I said before…I’m not really keen on the term “cis-gender.” Also, I prefer female pronouns, but I will never demand anyone to call me by them. My hope is that people will eventually acknowledge a trans person’s feelings enough to eventually consider it.

• Poppyred85: Thank you so much! I grew up so guarded about my feelings, or rather…my TRUE feelings…that now I actually really enjoy being so open about everything. It’s like being able to breathe finally. :)

I actually believe the term “trans woman” is completely appropriate in most cases, and I do believe a distinction is important. Oh, and yes…I definitely identity as a transsexual (or, at least…pre-op transsexual). I would prefer to to have genitalia that resembles a woman (and is able to be used for sexual penetration), but even if it is only externally resembling the vulva, I would be happy. At this point, I would almost even be fine just being rid of my male parts, simply for the way they are in the way and bothersome, a depressing eyesore, and have caused me aches my whole life.

Oh!! Yeah, there are a large amount of transgender people who also are very uncomfortable with people who say they feel female, but still present strongly as masculine, such as with a beard and such. I’ve seen only one of these in the transgender Facebook boards I’m a part of, and they caused quite an uproar. I think a large part of it is because they exactly the face of what everyone is afraid of with the bathroom issues…that just any asshole man can simply say “I feel like a woman today, therefore it is okay” before going into a women restroom or locker room. I completely understand the distress that would come with that, and don’t understand how someone could NOT after all the hell women have gone through for centuries at the hands of vile men.

Ugh….all the “phobia” talk. It's entirely overused in my opinion. I mean, transphobia IS real, and is out there everywhere. That’s a fact. BUT…I don't like seeing people take the tiniest little thing, even the smallest verbal mistake from people who don’t know the preferred language, and call it “transphobia.” Just saying this would probably piss off some people, but it’s my opinion. Don’t get me wrong, I DO understand it…because more often than not a trans person has been met with an insurmountable level of hostility, bullying, or other opposition at every turn throughout our lives. We are prepared for incoming attack at any given second…it’s been ingrained into us. Still though, the “phobic” adjective is thrown around way too easily in my opinion.

Hi ailynn, thanks for the post and for your contribution on this thread. It's refreshing.
I would just like to say though re this statement I suppose maybe it could be a similar level of concern for a straight woman if a lesbian entered the bathroom maybe?
Lesbians don't sexually assault or rape other women. Men do. The issue women have about males in bathrooms etc is not fear that they will be sexually attracted to them, it's fear they will sexually or physically harm them. I've never met a lesbian who made me feel physically intimidated, even if she was built like a tank. Men though...some only need to look at you a certain way and you know you're in danger. That's women's lived reality all over the world.

I do speak French and I had a look at the HHORAGES website that hugh is citing. Leaving aside the fact that it strays into tin foil hat territory (which it does), it makes no mention whatsover of intersex issues as far as I can see. So even if you did think trans was in any way related to intersex disorders (which it isn't), it's irrelevant. Doubly so since from my understanding they are focused on synthetic hormones that were banned in the late 1970s.

Just thought I would pop in my 2p worth on that.

Totally agree with the concern voiced over raising "sterile adults with the brains of children" (nicely put, if somewhat horrifying to think about). If there are not swathes of lawsuits in the futures of the doctors conducting these unregulated human trials, I will eat my hat.

Completely agree with you wrt lesbians (female ones that is ) being no problem in women's spaces because they're women. I would feel fine undressing in a changing room if I knew another woman there was lesbian, but not if a gay man was there. It's nothing to do with potential sexual attraction, and everything to do with having common biology and the likelihood of being sexually assaulted by a woman being very small. I know that women do carry out sexual assault, but with NOWHERE NEAR the frequency that men do. I don't wish to be naked, or changing clothes if men are present. I have seen transwomen argue that people don't take all their clothes off when changing into gym clothes, so any woman who objects to men being there when she's in her underwear are just upright prudes