Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

Thanks for your comments everyone! I'm at work right now, but will respond later after I get back home. One thing I want to say really quickly is I wish I didn't just say "I feel female in my soul"...it's one of the things I wished I could have changed if there was an edit option. I'll explain more later, but it's more of an extreme aversion to being perceived as male. Again, I'll explain more later...sorry. Thanks so much, and I hope you all have a nice day! 😊

This video posits the idea that biological sex is a social construct

Ahhh, isn't that Riley Dennis? I recognise Riley from Magdalen Berns's videos on YouTube.

Yes it's Riley Dennis. It's absolutely insane tbh.

Yes, please do let's ignore trolls and stay on topic.

Yes it's Riley Dennis. It's absolutely insane tbh

It is, but is also scarily understandable. If someone earnestly explains to you that it's terribly shallow to care about looks, and it should be about deeper things you might find yourselves nodding and agree. I've watched some of their videos and they are very persuasive and very well argued (although based on lies and fallacy)

If someone explains that TW shouldn't face discrimination you might nod and agree.

If someone explains it's terribly shallow, and terribly bigoted, and terribly old-fashioned to focus on genitals you might agree.

We are enlightened beings, not animals, and we are far more than just our biology.

As sound bites the TA argument can sound pretty sensible, after all we don't discriminate against black people or gay people because of their biology.

You need to look at the issue as a whole to see and understand the issue. And the Tas have got very slick media, and very slick sound bites - I mean what is your immediate visceral reaction to 41% of x characteristic attempts suicide.

Too many people don't have the inclination or the ability to critically think about things - I wasn't aware of the wider issues around transgender until I came across the threads on Mumsnet.

I feel slightly like I attracted the trolls though, as I mentioned DES in my posts about how hormone treatments had historically been problematic - I meant that as an argument against their experimental use now in children with healthy bodies. hughspeaks might randomly trawl the internet looking for opportunities to hold forth on his special topic.

If this had been a thread on intersex conditions, I would have stayed away. But nonetheless, I feel wary of medical conditions being used to justify spurious and experimental medical interventions where no medical (at least physical) conditions exist. There may be a neurological condition but even then, we don't treat conditions like autism by cutting off body parts, we help the child manage their condition and we manage their environment to help them cope. You know, accept the person not define them by their neurological wiring. Or there may be a mental health condition - again non-invasive intervention would be preferable.

Speaking as a mother with mental health issues and DC on the spectrum who is quite at home wielding a drill and wearing trousers.

I did wonder how the pair of them stumbled across the thread, it sometimes seems like they have some kind of alert system.

That Riley Dennis - batshit.

BertrandRussell "Hugh- why are you still talking about male and female brains?"
Because this thread is about transgenderism, which for reasons I've already explained, I think is the result of intersexed or opposite-sexed brain development.

I've attached the first page preview of a paper which illustrates quite well how sex differences in the brain can affect people's behaviour. The paper is entitled Prenatal Exposure to Female Hormones: Effect on Psychosexual Development in Boys, and compares boys who were prenatally exposed to synthetic female hormones (DES or progestins), to otherwise comparable kids who weren't exposed. I have many of the same behavioural attributes, and consider them to be the result of my brain regions controlling complex movement and instinctive social behaviour having developed as female instead of male.

"Based on clinical interviews with the 16 year old subjects and their mothers, the experimental subjects were significantly less "masculine" than the contrast diabetic sample. From judgements of athletic coordination (throwing and catching a ball, swinging a bat, and running), 48 percent or 9 out of 19 experimental subjects received ratings which were considered as indicative of female behavioural movements compared with 12.5 per cent (one of 8) of the contrast diabetic sample or 23.7 percent (5 of 22) of the combined contrast sample."

"Experimental subjects were less aggressive-assertive than the contrast diabetic populations. Of the 10 least aggressive-assertive subjects, 8 were experimental subjects, and 2 were normal contrast subjects."

"The experimentals were less competitive, placed less emphasis on physical prowess, were less success-oriented, and displayed less determination to achieve their goals than the combined contrast groups"

One other thing they mention are physical differences between the "experimentals" and unexposed boys.

"The experimental subjects were shorter (though the same age and weight) and they tended to have a shorter upper body half. The latter body morphology was considered representative of a lowered androgenicity index."

I'm actually the tallest in my family, however my leg length to upper body height is well into the female range, one of the key signs of a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", which is normally associated with intersex conditions. The fact that these researchers were easily able to spot physical as well as behavioural differences between hormone exposed kids and unexposed ones, reinforces my view that the US federal health agencies must know that the male babies who were exposed to these treatments have ended up intersexed and with female brain development as a result. Rather than admit what happened, they've opted for a cover up, which is hardly surprising considering most people's horror of intersex, and the fact that the FDA approved DES for use in pregnancy even though it caused intersexuality in rats during preliminary testing.

I've also attached a few paragraphs from that paper, talking about "Jim", one of their subjects whom they considered representative of the behavioural changes seen.

"Jim is a 16-year-old boy whose mother has moderately severe diabetes and was treated during the third trimester with diethylstilbestrol (Stilbestrol) and progesterone. Jim was always a lethargic and cautious child. He avoided rough-and-tumble play and any contact sports ... He is a good student academically but has always been a poor athlete ... He ranks himself low (lowest quartile) in his class on both physical power and level of influence. He is a loner and has always avoided competitive situations ... He has had only one fight in his life, does not like to fight ... Jim performed the athletic tasks in a decidedly feminine manner. He threw a ball awkwardly and with little force. Most of the power was generated by the elbow and wrists; he released the ball early in the arc of the throw. He swung a bat through a very short arc with little force with elbows bent and with no breaking of the wrists. He ran mincingly with arms clasped near his chest.

One of the contrast diabetic mothers, a woman with moderately severe diabetes which was recognized approximately one year after the birth of her 16-year-old son, had a second son who at the time of the study was 12 years old. She, of course, received no hormones during the pregnancy with her older son but did receive the progesterone-estrogen regimen during the pregnancy of her second son. The mother gratuitously commented that there is a marked contrast between the two children in that the younger son is an extremely poor athlete, is regarded as a "sissy" by the other boys, will never fight back when pushed, and has never developed an interest in electronic devices or chemical sets as has his older brother."

Again, there are a lot of parallels with my own experiences as a teenager, which I consider to be the result of some parts of my brain having developed as female instead of male.

A name change may be in order

From hughspeaks to hughlistens

Otherwise there is a danger your name will become

hughdoesntstop talking or hughisbeginningtoannoyeveryone

That paper is from 1973 and seems to only look at behaviour, not brain structures. How does this support the idea of male and female brains? What do you think about the very recent meta analysis that showed no significant differences between male and female brains?

Cutting edge science. Marking my place to try to remember to find the whole paper tomorrow.

This reminds me of my ex, who would just keep repeating the same argument in different words, louder, maybe longer and more complicated words or a polite tone varied with shouty or icy cold or charming, but the same argument which I had disagreed with. He called it a communication issue. No, not a communication issue, I simply did not agree. I communicated the reasons for disagreeing just fine. He did not listen, just found a new way of trying to get me to agree. It was quite exhausting.

hughspeaks if you have explained something and people don't agree with you, and you have been arguing the same issue for ages and people still don't agree, then is there not a point where it is courteous to just accept that?

It was quite exhausting

And there you have it.

So being crap at throwing and being in the bottom 25% of your class makes you feminine?

OK Hugh. If only to shut you up re prenatal hormones Let's accept for a moment despite the complete and utter lack of evidence that your brain was awash in female hormones as a fetus. And that you were left a feminine man as a result - one who can't throw a ball or run like his peers.

So?

That doesn't make you a woman. That doesn't make your brain a female brain, either. Let's face it: Every single cell in your body is XY, including your brain. That means you have a male brain in a male body, regardless of whether or not you were exposed to the wrong hormones while in the womb.

Can you give a sign that you understand what I am saying?

Hugh- that paper is over 40 years old.............

I only really understood the conclusion of what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that people who can't throw balls must be women?

Did Ailynn come back?

(I apologize for the long delay, and for this very long-winded response! I promise to bow out of the conversation...my intent is certainly not to be a troll in any way.)

• illegitimateMortificadospawn: Sorry, I used the phrase “assigned male at birth” because that is usually the polite way of talking on that subject in the transgender community. Saying “born a boy” upsets a large group of people, so I used the phrase that usually works best within most of my social circles.

“Feeling female.” Well, I suppose it is perhaps more of an extreme feeling of aversion toward being perceived as a male. Here also where where it is easy to fall into stereotypical views on what it means to me “male” or “female.” Usually, I socially interact much more naturally with women then men. I enjoy feminine, pretty things…and feel natural when wearing dresses or makeup…almost a feeling or relief. I like feeling pretty if and when possible. I am kind and nurturing, and genuinely enjoy taking care of people. I have an aversion toward fighting and violence, even when it is something as tame as sports or even those “blooper” videos where people get hurt in an accident and it’s somehow supposed to be hilarious.

Obviously, these are all obviously stereotypical attributes to femininity…and I absolutely do not believe women should be nurturing or submissive in any way. A woman does not need to be pretty or enjoy pretty things. They can be just as tough or tougher than men, kick ass at sports, and go lumberjack-stylin’ all they want. Every woman is beautiful in her own way exactly how she feels and wants to be perceived.

• ItsAllGoingToBeFine: Ohh, good question! :) I hope my answer doesn’t become too detailed or embarrassing here, but I’ll answer honestly. Pinpointing my sexuality has always been a very confusing thing for me. As far as sexual attraction goes, I guess you could say I was basically asexual growing up. I thought women were very beautiful, yet I never actually wanted to have sex with a woman…even in fantasy. Actually, I should clarify…I never ever fantasized about having sexual intercourse with a woman…or even had any fantasies involving me with male parts. I did occasionally have fantasies of kissing or performing cunnilingus. I’m sure part of this was because I always disliked my genitals…actually, I despised them. I believe it came from the dull ache or cramps I often had in my left testicle, and because these genitals were directly responsible for others thinking I was a boy.

In regards to attraction toward men, well…I didn’t really have that either. I mean, sure…some guys were handsome, but none ever made me get that feeling of “I want him.” The weird thing though, was that my fantasies from around age 15 on, were of me as a woman being intimate with a man. Kissing, intercourse, oral sex…even getting married and becoming a mother with a beautiful child…I had these fantasies frequently. Still, I was always so confused on why I so rarely found any men attractive in reality.

It was always confusing for me if someone asked me if I was gay. I wasn’t attracted to women, and I was only attracted to men in my fantasies where I was completely female. I can say that now, after I have been medically transitioning for a year, I feel much more at home with my sexuality…and consider myself a “straight trans woman.” Even though I’ve not dated men as of yet, I do feel much more attracted to men than before. Still, as far as sex goes…I’m only really interested in that after I manage to have gender affirming surgery.

In regards to any trans activists acting homophobic, I have seen that extremely rarely. The times I have seen it are because of the mistreatment they have suffered at the hands of gay men or lesbians. Trans or not, ANYONE who says something as idiotic as “lesbians are just transmen in denial” needs to shut up. That’s as ignorant and awful as people saying “trans women are just perverted men or pedophiles.” Statements like these are terrible and false, and people need to stop. We are ALL just trying to live happy lives true to ourselves…be they any race or religion, straight, bi, gay, lesbian, trans, man, woman, intersex, whatever. We ALL suffer with our own pains and worries. People just need to be compassionate for other people of all types…a shared empathy…and this world could truly be something great. :)

• MyVisionsComeFromSoup: Thanks for the question! My answers up above I believe may answer that for you, although in my exhausted state I’m sure I’m leaving very obvious things out. Also, I love your nickname! :)

• ageingrunner: Oh, that was certainly a factor for sure! All my life, I had heard that gay people were just people who had given themselves over to a sinful nature…and in school in the 90’s (and trigger warning here), I heard terms like “sissy”, “fag” or “faggot” on a constant basis around school. It was obvious to me that those who identified as gay would be met with opposition. Even stronger than that it seemed, were negative attitudes people seemed to have toward the “gay” people who dressed up in the clothes of the opposite sex. Back then, anything even remotely LGBT was just considered “gay”…and therefore, “bad.” I knew I wanted to be a girl, but I didn’t understand why. I knew I wasn’t like the characters in Bosom Buddies, which were just regular guys trying to be sneaky for laughs. I knew I wasn’t like Dr Frank-N-Furter in Rocky Horror, who was sadistic and a sex-maniac. i just wanted to be a girl, be pretty if possible and wear pretty things, and feel…normal. I was just too much of a coward though to let anyone know, even on “Opposite Day” during school pride week (this was a day where the cheerleaders dressed like football players and vise versa). I knew that if even the smallest hint was shown, then I would face endless bullying, so I decided I would try my very best to be the guy everyone expected me to be…and I tried, hard…for over 30 years. It only led me to depression, anxiety, and eventually near suicide.

But, all is okay! I’m feeling much happier now these days after beginning hormone therapy at age 41. I hope that answers the question; as I said earlier I’m exhausted and probably rambling. :)

Ailynn thank for replying - what you seem to be saying is that you felt "not male" rather than "female" then? And if you were "not male" then you "had" to be female, as what was the opposite of "male"? If so, that seems to be broadly similar to things I've read from TW who are not the "I say I'm a woman therefore I am a woman and you must all believe that along with me" types who are getting a lot of the airtime atm. I think AGuyCalledHelen has a blog post along those lines (apologies if I'm misremembering the name). A rejection of what being a man stands for rather than actually being a woman, and acceptance that they are a transwoman, not a man, not a woman.

Does that seem an accurate interpretation of what you posted?

ROFL Hugh - that paper could be describing my two boys - one quite effeminate, not great at sports or very strong, and one who's a little tank - and my mother has never even been on the pill, let alone any other hormone treatments, and I took no medications during either pregnancy. One or two case studies (or anecdotes) from 40 years ago or present day mean nothing

Riley Dennis speaks really quickly in that ever so reasonable so you must agree with me tone of voice, so you come out of the video not really knowing what was said, but feeling like you probably agree.

My aforementioned two sons strongly indicate to me that sex isn't a social construct however, if Riley could explain how they came into being, and how I can socially construct it so DP has the next one he's hankering for, I'd be most grateful

Thanks Ailynn - that was very thorough - given your description - Well, I suppose it is perhaps more of an extreme feeling of aversion toward being perceived as a male...... I enjoy feminine, pretty things…and feel natural when wearing dresses or makeup

Can you see how women could find that pretty offensive? I, and many women have no problem with you dressing how you like, having all the hobbies and interests that you want, but the idea that not-man == woman - well, it's insulting isn't it? - like women aren't really people, we don't have our own personhood, we're just 'not-men'

De-lurking to say I found Ailynn's comments so enlightening as an explanation of how people who are biologically male may arrive at the conclusion they 'feel female', simply because they do not feel male.

If boys are allowed to believe they can dislike violence, enjoy 'pretty things' and still be male, so much of this becomes a non-issue. Likewise, girls need to know that they don't have to play with dolls, wear dresses or do ballet to be female. Getting rid of these limiting gender stereotypes can only benefit us all.

I think ailynns post sums up how most people on here think

Thank you for posting

Thanks Ailynn. I think it's so sad that you felt you couldn't be yourself without medication and surgery. It sounds like you grew up in quite a rigidly gendered environment too, which can't have helped. I hope you manage to find some peace with yourself.