Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

It's not "aimed" at you. This isn't about you.

I took one line from your post and elaborated on it. People do that on here.

I would have started the post with your name if it was "aimed" at you. Now you understood that it wasn't. It's time to move on.

It is a very good point. The thing is, as I see it, the category "transgender" as it is now understood also includes "non binary" which I think is mostly special snowflake look at my identiteee bullshit, and a large number of men expressing clearly what has been identified as autogynephilia, which is a sexual fetish so I don't think would necessarily be classed as a mental health condition. I think the amount of people with gender dysphoria is quite small as a part of this larger group.

I would agree that gender dysphoria is clearly a mental health condition and should be treated as such, whatever the agreed treatment.

I also think there are a lot of other personality disorders like narcissism and histrionic personality disorder within this larger group - I would imagine higher than the general population. A lot of the rhetoric just comes across to me as pure narcissistic rage (and I believe I have personal experience of narcissistic men). And it seems to me that they've bound up so much of their identity into the fight to be recognised as women and force themselves into their spaces that they take it as a personal wound when people deny this.

That's just my thoughts, I am not a psychiatrist!

I agree with you Albadross on the stigmatisation of mental health. I think it's particularly worrying when you consider the high levels of co-morbidity amongst trans people and the fact that the prevalence of autism is significantly higher too.

So not only is it offensive, but it will probably lead to people writing off problems as being trans-related and not seeking help for genuine mental health problems. This may go some way to explaining why levels of suicide remain high for post-operative transpeople, who not only will have gone through a traumatic operation, but are likely to see the end of any counselling they receive as the assumption is they've been "cured".

Prawn and Devi thanks for the advice. Unfortunatly I live in the back of beyond so counsellors of any type are few and far between. I'll definitely have a look down those routes though, I also got sent a link for someone who may be able to help me find someone neutral, so I'll be calling them later.

Two I had never heard of her before but just watched 3 of her videos. She is pretty awesome.

The experience that I am having with my child is so far removed from what I read about more often than not. For us it has never been about hobbies and likes/dislikes. My child still loves a wide range of activities, still wears neutral tracksuits, has never been limited in colours or toys at all, just as my other children haven't, my daughters are just as happy to shop in the boys section as the girls and have never questioned their identity at all.

My child has real issues with their body, they feel physically wrong. It's not a case of I like pink or blue and therefore I am a girl/boy. They feel so uncomfortable and unhappy with their body. It's basically body dysmorphia.

The new wave of transgender children I see are pretty much all basing their feelings on their likes and dislikes and it's terrifying. Terrifying that people, children are being encouraged down this path, which is so very difficult, based on a few toys they want to play with.

I wouldn't wish what my child is going through on anyone.

I'm going on to have a read of that thread now Prawn and will definitely send an email if you think it will help.

Well, I do think it's worth trying an email to the RCGP, Fish, because you know of what you speak - they can't just write you off as an activist - you're a concerned parent who feels her child is being badly let down by the NHS.

I really agree with Prawn, Fish. As she said, they can't just dismiss your experience out of hand.

I sent an essay email off to them outlining my experiences from right when this started to now. Everything about the schools approach, the doctors, the mental health people, the gender clinics. How things were when we started compared to now and about the encouragement my child is getting from every professional they meet.

I'll let you know if/when I get a response from them.

Total unquestioning acceptance of everyone sounds great on the surface, but it's the unquestioning acceptance that is harming my child and looks set to harm a lot of others too. Absolutely terrifying.

Fantastic, Fish! Well done.

It seems ridiculous that I have to speak against transgender rights to get help for my transgender child.

How fucked up has this whole thing got?

Yes, it does. But you're speaking up for a more cautious, less knee jerk approach to transgender rights rather than speaking against equality and freedom from discrimination.

I'd think what you're doing is to protect your own DC and other people's, Fish. Be proud of yourself.

Article in the Scotsman today by Rev David Robertson

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/dare-to-debate-this-damaging-idea-that-gender-is-a-social-construct-1-4342596

"There is a fear that dare not speak its name, a question that dare not be asked. An ideology is being foisted on Scotland’s children which, though well-meaning, is ultimately harmful."

"It is an attempt to teach that gender is just a social construct and nothing to do with biological sex. Human autonomy now extends to the extent that you get to choose your own gender. And there are now longer just two – that is so 20th Century! Now, according to Facebook, we can choose 56.

84 per cent of children who experience gender identity issues resort to their biological gender by the time they are in adulthood. Giving puberty blockers to primary children, or telling five year olds that they can identify as whatever they want, is at best, unwise, and at worst, a form of state sponsored child abuse."

Somehow I suspect the fact that the author is Christian will count against his sign of the argument.

his SIDE of the argument, even

I did the whole kneejerk reaction when being transgender became more mainstream.

I was standing up for everything that I am now against due to this new self identifying nonsense.

I saw what me and my child went through and thought those stringent rules and all the hoop jumping would weed out the people who didn't really want this.

I've never been so wrong.

It seems ridiculous that I have to speak against transgender rights to get help for my transgender child.

I don't think you are speaking against transgender rights, more asking for more transgender rights...in that there should be the right to have various treatments rather than only surgery and stuff.

The way it is with trans stuff, I kinda see it being like telling cancer patients that they have to have areas chopped off and no other route of treatment will ever be considered. Oh, and if you chose to go private and have chemo instead just to see if that works before taking the more drastic step of surgery, you will get no counseling or help anymore. To top it all off, figures will be distorted so much that you will be told that if you do not chose amputation, 50+% of patients in the same situation die (when thats not actually the case)

I am not always the best with words, so I feel I should clarify before posting that I am making light of neither cancer sufferers nor transgendered peoples struggles here. I just keep trying to think of some kind of comparison and this is what keeps coming to me.

I have read the Rev Robertson's article.

While the article makes important points, it seems to me things have got muddled up.

Feminists have spent decades arguing that gender is a social construct - meaning that women, defined by sex, should not be pigeon-holed into roles seen as suited to their sex. Caring, nurturing, domestic roles seen as natural because women are the reproductive sex. Gendered expectations because one is biologically female.

The sex is biological and cannot be changed, the expectations relating to the social roles (gender) can be.

Whereas Rev Robertson seems to be dismissing the idea that gender is a social construct - in order to argue that gender does not equate to sex.

I am not articulating this well

I get what you mean Cocoa. There's a cartoon (which I can't find) which is roughly - you're a girl and you like engineering? Trans answer: you're really a boy, and need your body fixed so you can be a proper man who likes engineering. Patriarchal answer: you're deluded and need your mind fixed so you can be a proper woman who likes needlework instead. Feminist answer: women can be engineers.

rosehippy he has also massively missed the meaning of 'gender as a social construct' and refers to 'biological gender' so I'm not massively interested in what he has to say and whether people take it seriously.

It seems that everyone now has to be 100% inclusive of trans people, which sounds great in theory, in reality it is causing a lot of trouble and is detrimental to everyone

This statement has floored me a bit. It's so true and self evident but really stark when you spell it out like that.

Agree with PP about the Rev's article. I intitially thought "dare to debate this damaging idea that gender is a social construct" was saying "dare to argue against the transactivist's idea that gender is innate".

Argh, so frustrating to be up against common or garden sexism as well as transactivists shiny new brainwashing sexism. I'm tempted to write something brief and not incompatible with Christianity and send it to influential church leaders because I suspect there will be more weighing in on the debate... probably a mad idea though...

It seems that everyone now has to be 100% inclusive of trans people, which sounds great in theory, in reality it is causing a lot of trouble and is detrimental to everyone

The thing is "inclusive" has a new meaning in the trans ideology. It's part of their whole new dictionary. Inclusive in general means not excluding someone - in employment, housing, services and so on. That's fine. But the trans meaning of inclusive means "agree with blatant and extremely troublesome denial of reality". I don't think any of us want to treat transpeople as subhuman in any way, but that's not the same thing as agreeing men are women or vice versa.

You've nailed it re "inclusivity" BBC. This is scope creep. No one wants to be thought of as uninclusive.

I'm tempted to write something brief and not incompatible with Christianity...

Oh dear, just had a quick google and it seems that horse may have already bolted...

I get exactly what you're saying wanking

The way I see it is that this process should be difficult.

Maybe not so much for adults, but certainly for children. And it was a long and difficult process a few years back, now it takes no more consideration than deciding to have a haircut, only this isn't totally reversible.

In 10-20 years the 80% of children who don't transition in adulthood will more likely be nearer 10% due to the early medical intervention and the damage that is being done to children now will just be coming to light.

It's like watching an accident waiting to happen and being unable to stop it while the rest of the world cheers from the sidelines.

I feel exactly the same, Fish. It is truly so horrifying. That poor lesbian in the documentary had me all teary. I think it's all going to explode eventually, ok, but by that time how many kids will have their lives mangled?

But you are doing everything you can to protect your DC. That's all you can do, really.