Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

Fuck me, some kid told their dad they were trans at 2 and a half!? Thats totally mental. So happy the dad ignored it.

The bald transman is coming across slightly deranged..wtf..'he' is saying that for kids its all about what toys you play with and what clothes you wear and stuff. Which seems to be true listening to the transkids on earlier. But his conclusion is that these children who don't fit into gender boxes...socially transition, rather than just be allowed to be themselves?

The other person who detransitioned, what a heartbreaking story. Why did this person not recieve actual help rather than be pushed towards transition :( Also the terrible 'transition or die' message being forced into Lou.

The bald transman again, complaining about detransitioners being a minority but get loads of attention...yet arguing for transition for kids with gender dysphoria..despite the 'true trans' so to speak (meaning those who would persist in adulthood without treatment in early years) being a minority. And what about the 80% of kids who would not have taken this route if not pushed there? Grr this is making me angry

Overall, I see why the transactivists are kicking off. The program was extremely balanced and those opposed to transing children came across a lot...saner...than those arguing for transing kids. I expect it made a lot of people think harder instead of blindly accepting everything, especially Lou's story.

the bald transman and the priest with the Bible King Trans Edition were the nuttiest people in the show.

I have no connections to the LGB community, but from an outsider's point of view, T seems to have been accepted as part of them. Are the concerns about T on LGB community very visible, and been given a high profile, within that community- or is it still a marginal voice and most LGB have not yet woken up to the implications of T?

It's a good question. Judging by the comments that appear "under the line" on sites like PinkNews, I get the impression that opinion is very divided, with lesbians more transgender-skeptic than gay men.

Lesbians have been affected more immediately by all this, because they are having their spaces encroached on by "gynephilic" (attracted to women) transwomenthe late transitioners. Or autogynephilic, perhaps I should say. Early-transitioners, by contrast, are attracted to menthese are not the ones who have been getting into arguments with lesbians.

Among transmen, there has traditionally been no equivalent to the late-transitioning autogynephilic group, and FtM have been overwhelmingly attracted to women--because they are coming from the same group as lesbians. So transmen have not traditionally been hanging around gay men looking for relationships. Hence, a lot less worry/concern from gay men.

However, with the new trend towards trans-ing very young kids, I think alarm bells have been ringing among many gay men, who are like "Christ, if I had been born a generation later, I could have ended up on puberty blockers and getting my dick cut off."

With the new social contagion around TGism we have also seen some heterosexual teenage girls declaring they are trans, and some of these have apparently been trying to attract the attention of gay men. Of course, men do not feel usually threatened by this, just irritated.

Datalounge seems to be mostly gay men, and tends to be transgender-skeptic. It was interesting reading through some of the threads.

www.datalounge.com/thread/12395424-transgender-

www.datalounge.com/tags/4 Sorry, THIS was the link.

If all toys and haircuts were up for grabs without judgement, there wouldn't be an issue. Patriarchy pushes 51% of the population into a lower class which people either want to escape from or turn it into a fetish. The trans movement is homophobic and deeply, deeply sexy all dressed up as being bang on trend. I think some critical thinking needs to be applied, who is driving this, why?

The programme is available to watch outside the UK now: archive.org/details/BBC-trans-kids

I think some critical thinking needs to be applied, who is driving this, why?

This is exactly the question we should be asking. And why now.

The thing that really pissed me off about the Stonewall response to the programme was that Ruth Hunt cited the "drop the Barbie" line without acknowledging that it was the trans therapist that said that. Dr Zucker explicitly said it wasn't about what toys kids played with.

But facts, eh? What are they good for?

Exactly Annie - he came over as very sensible (as did the parents and kids who worked with him) - he explicitly said that that wasn't his approach, that his approach was to encourage the parents to give the kids a wide variety of toys to play with (although, from one of the mothers, I get the feeling that if she never saw another pokemon she'd be happy )!

If I went into therapy, I would want someone like him I think. Slow, thoughtful, takes time and doesn't rush things. He came across very well indeed I thought.

I know a lot of people think that the parents of these children are abusive, I can see why really, but they are doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

It doesn't seem abusive to me Fish. I can see exactly how it could feel like meeting a child's needs, especially in the context of the new TSA-influenced medical orthodoxy.

I had terrible trouble deciding what to do about the MMR (ASC already suspected in my eldest by the time that blew up).

Oops sorry. Was 'catching up' on the wrong page entirely.

Someone I know who is a doctor said it made her furious because a tiny handful of people from a discredited clinic (who were trying to "cure" the children) got to say as much as the entire rest of the trans community.

Sure most of the "entire rest of the trans community" wasn't commenting or involved?

It's my understanding that dr Zucker was smeared by some in the trans community which lead to his clinic being shut, but the allegations against him have since been withdrawn.

Also, the entire rest of the trans community dont necessarily have any expert knowledge of child development.

Yes, ageingrunner. There's a very long but very good article here about what went on. It makes a change to see proper investigative journalism these days.

Some of the comments below this article suggest that it doesn't matter that Zucker was totally set up because he was wrong anyway

One of the comments suggested googling 'Lupron petition' which proved educational (Lupron is one of the drugs used as a puberty blocker).

That's interesting, Albadross. More than 500 clinicians working in the same field have signed a petition in protest at what has been done to Dr Zucker (and, by extension, his patients) so he is well respected by his peers.

My interpretation is not that Dr Zucker was trying to "cure" the children he counselled but was responsibly reflecting the truth that 80% of untreated gender dysphoric children will spontaneously resolve their discomfort. He explicitly stated that those who persisted should receive medical treatment.

I agree with ChocChoc that Dr Zucker was the kind of therapist I would want. He came over immeasurably better than the bald counsellor who seemed the worst sort of trendy zeitgeist surfer.

Do the transactivists have any concerns about the long term use of hormones?

Oh yes, it is a good article. I read it the other day. But didn't read the comments, so have just googled Lupron

Just read the article Pencil. VERY long! It does seem that dr Zucker was treated very badly, and the children who were/would have been helped in the clinic now won't be, unfortunately.

Oh I'm sure some gender quack can now put them on the right path to glorious transition and a life of uncomplicated joy and acceptance.

Ain't that the truth venus 😔

This rubbish about "conversion therapy" and evil doctors who try to "cure" trans kids makes me so cross. Nobody gives a shit about the 80% who are being "cured" of being gay or gender nonconforming.

Meanwhile, I am also tired of transactivists on twitter telling lesbians that they are self-hating trans men.

Juno Dawson tweeted:

"In a referendum, the UK would vote for mandatory beer taps in homes. Doesn't mean government would do it or that it would be good for us."

So she thinks children should decide their gender but adults can't be trusted...