Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

Hmm, OK ,so I guess in order to give validity to the claim of innateness to 'feeling like a women' a person would need to define what that feeling is.

This is the crux of it really. If you define being a woman by gender stereotyping, any gender stereotype that you could name, I can show you a woman who doesn't have it. But they are still a woman.

There simply is no answer other than a biological one. Which is why, when you ask a trans-woman what it is that she is feeling that makes her a woman, it comes out as an essence of some description -indefinable and subjective. Likewise if you ask what are the similarities between you and me (a woman) which make us the same. There aren't any which don't resort to gender stereotypes (see above).

It's also worth noting that many transwomen, particularly the activists, display male socialisation, to such an extent that they come across as hyper male. But continue to say they have empathy with and an affinity for women, because they are one. It's an extraordinary disconnect.

With regards to the LGBT community in general - I am not in that community, but I should imagine they have the same attitude as women in general. A desire to be inclusive and fight for a minority who is suffering, until the disconnect hits them in real life. (Like monkey's friend above).

Also, of course there are many transwomen who don't make demands, who do just want to get on with life peacefully. They tend to know they are men, are often attracted to other men and have zero desire to appropriate womanhood at the expense of women.

As A guy called Helen (a transwomem) says to transactivists at large, if you don't want women to think you are entitled abusive men, stop acting like it.

Frankly, if transactivists hadn't insisted on us agreeing that they are actually women, none of this would have happened. All the gender nonconforming trans-people would just get on with their lives like they have for years.

And I find it all a little immaterial anyway. Unless you have been socialised as female since birth, you haven't lived as a woman and all that entails. Not to mention the fact that you will never experience womanhood from the point of biology. And it's glaringly obvious when you speak to trans-women.

It's a mindfuck and I don't envy you your task.

ageingrunner I read his guardian article and the comments underneath are unbelievable. All saying how wonderful he is for wearing blue eyeshadow. I'm misgendering btw, at the time of the article shon was a man.

Assume you mean not misgendering...
A man wearing makeup would be a positive thing IMO. I'd think it was wonderful - breaking down the idea of gender. We need more of this kind of thing. It's when that's taken to mean "Must be a woman inside" that it actually reinforces gender norms.

However I wouldn't automatically sort of worship and agree with the person on everything they say which does seem to be the case when someone with a public profile comes out as trans... although to be fair I have noticed this in general, where people who strongly agree on one thing automatically agree with the person on other things. But the trans thing seems to take this kind of cultish behaviour to a whole new level.

I don't know if it's any help to CoolJazz but this is interesting, re. affect of gender norms on unbringing and identity. (Afghan girls raised as boys.)

re. that Shania Twain song... Hrmphhh. I was 12 when that was released, and I loved it. It totally resonated. Now, that is alien to me. It's really hard to explain, but what I mean is I sort of "get" the idea of gender identity, but I think its a very immature thing. Because after that I went through being exasperated at boy's/men's immaturity and incompetence, plus joking I was "a gay man in a woman's body" (sorry!) because I kinda felt like that in certain ways (being practical, making double entrendre style jokes) before eventually observing and examining the social context, and reading stuff about this, which really resonated.

But now, if a see a MtT with (imo) nice style even if they don't pass, a tiny part of me is 12 again, in awe, going "Ooh, pretty". I guess because we're surrounded by messages that that is what to aspire to... I dunno, it makes it look fun. By I cannot be arsed to doll myself up everyday and loathe the masses of expectations and the rest of it that comes with that.

I'm sorry, I'm waffling, there was a point in there somewhere

CoolJazz, what type of service are you writing guidelines for? as it will make a lot of difference eg if you offer residential facilities, if you are medical etc
I don't envy you either but I think you are quite right to do all this reading and thinking first. I'd be prepared, I think, to have to argue the case with people who haven't done all this reading and thinking and are still of the 'let's be tolerant of this minority'- as I was myself a few years ago. Not that I want to oppress people, I just want to protect women and children. Wear what you like, I say.
Re the 'innateness'- I think the claim to innateness DOES echo the claim some homosexuals would make to innateness, maybe for the same reason (it's not our fault, we were born this way). This would also support the case for puberty blockers (except, as we have seen, most children accept their sex after puberty)But I don't see that it matters in the case of homosexuality. Sexual behaviour becomes relevant after puberty, so the sexual orientation of pre pubertal children is neither here nor there. As a PP mentioned there are men who have sex with men who don't identify as gay, and through history/across the world now we have societies which sanction same sex behaviour under some circumstances, which don't all involve a fixed identity. I think the idea of a fixed sexuality is a recent, western concept.

BBC yes I meant NOT misgendering, thanks
I'm all for men wearing makeup and dresses and whatever else they would like. But no, I don't believe it makes them women. It did piss me off a bit that he was being congratulated for doing something (and not very well if I'm honest) that many women do every day without any fanfare. It's definitely a good way for men to get attention, if they so please.

" I think the idea of a fixed sexuality is a recent, western concept."
Indeed! Also the idea of what 'sexuality' or a sexual partner was for. So, doing 'your duty' to your country/city/state as a man by reproducing with 'suitable' women/wives was often seen as distinct from casual or recreational sexual activities. The ancient greeks seemed to have slotted men having sexual activity with other men into their social system, which AFAIK was based on age/status rather than sex.

Cool
Good luck with it all. There are very many intelligentr informed women on here as oyu know. I too have been lurking and reading for a long time.

Please don't reveal too much of your situation on MN, there are always fuckers that want to dox

India Willoughby has been on full frontal attack on twitter. Paris Lees too Particulary on the producer of this show. No wonder few wil dare the onslaught

Sam Bagnall = I support you

I have always quite liked Rachel Johnson despite her connections

This is her (and fucking everyone's) story

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4121112/RACHEL-JOHNSON-told-class-call-Richard-Did-trans-kid.html

Sam Bagnall, Rachel Johnson and Sarah Baxter, who wrote the Sunday Times article, are all getting attacked on Twitter & deserve support.

Cool, you sound awesome. Thank goodness for people like you. Second what pp said about being careful what you say as these threads get watched.

They're such nasty bullying arseholes. If their argument stood on its merits they wouldn't need to do it. But it doesn't, to anyone with half a brain cell.

I asked DH to watch this documentary yesterday. He had his 'peak trans' moment. We talked for a long time afterwards about all sorts of aspects of the transagenda and the upshot was that he apologised for thinking I was a bigot for the last couple of years - he just hadn't listened to what I was saying.

This documentary is starting conversations. It's shifted the overton window slightly and it feels like it's more possible for people to begin to ask questions and properly think about what's happening, rather than blindly accept the mainstream dogma.

From the mail article it seems like a lot of the commenters had watched the doc which is encouraging.

There is no straightforward 'gay gene', even though it seems to be impossible (as well as distinctly unethical) to try and change someones sexual orientation

I once heard a radio interview with a biologist of some sort who was talking about the 'gay gene' and about how frustrated he was that people / the media treated a very complex bit of science so simplistically. The gist seemed to be that the popular idea that this gene automatically 'caused' homosexuality was rubbish.

Cool- female Grayson Perry completely nails it for the younger me. I switched between jeans and t-shirt and (if I do say so myself) rather slinky dresses - but in the latter I always felt like I was pulling off some sort of magic trick, all smoke and mirrors, and that it wasn't the real me (much as it was fun to dress up).

From Miranda Yardley - Brilliant as ever

storify.com/TerrorizerMir/transgender-kids-who-knows-best

Looking at Mirandas tweets made me curious so I searched the hashtag #whoknowsbest and discovered this

www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

We have known for a while the 50% suicide rate us a load of shit though. Still good to see it picked apart though

The fact that anyone who has ever expressed the opinion that there are other forms of treatment for 'transkids' than transition was barred from that event is deeply terrifying.

Grayson Perry is a very interesting one. He does not identify as a woman, has no interest in appropriating womanhood nor does he have any interest in accessing women's spaces. Despite this, he is a self confessed autogynephile. He is successful, well thought of and doesn't engage in oppression olympics.

If he said he was trans, IS a woman and demanded all women's rights were accrued to him, he would characterise the worst of the trans-ideology.

But he doesn't. He likes wearing frocks and has a sexual kink.

I like him immensely.

Been on an interesting tour round twitter. This is a useful article:

www.c2cjournal.ca/2016/12/not-my-rights-movement/

Talk of the Transabled movement is downright horrifying. People who desire to be disabled and want surgery to achieve it.

I did want to say something about the dysphoria side of things, which seems to be being forgotten. People with gender dysphoria, as I understand it, don't just feel like the opposite sex but they actively hate/dislike/reject their own body and assigned sex. For this group, it isn't just about feeling like the opposite sex, which is a very nebulous thing, but is also about not feeling like their assigned sex and feeling trapped in a body that's wrong. I can't imagine how that must feel. It must be incredibly distressing.

Personally I've been quite happy to express my gender in a way that doesn't conform to female stereotypes. As I'm quite happy with my female body and to be seen as a woman then that's ok for me. I can wear men's clothes, play football, not wear make-up and still be a woman. For some people, that isn't ok and I think that some form of full or partial transition for them is ok. It's an extreme treatment but maybe it's the lesser of two evils.

Been typing this reply for ages and not sure where I'm going other than to say I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. The trans activists are doing a disservice to people in their own community by shouting loudly and drowning out the voices of those they purport to be trying to protect.

I can see why there are more m to f trans than vv. Being a man is much more restrictive in terms of clothes and behaviour than being a woman.
It's a shame the men who then decide they therefore must be women don't put all that energy into challenging and broadening societies idea of masculinity.
Male friends of mine straight and gay did wear make up in the New Romantic era of the 80s and wearing flouncy clothes was OK then. Male dress seems much more limited now, maybe a reason cosplay has taken off so much.
Egyptian men used to wear make up and ornamentation, there seemed to be more homosexuality and bisexuality then as well.
Change society's idea of masculinity rather than decide that isn't how you feel and what you want to you must therefore be female.

I wonder if gender dysphoria is a condition suffered by association with unwanted gender roles.

I agree that the distress at ones genitals and the need to be rid of them doesn't make you the opposite sex. Just means not wanting to be THAT sex. But I wonder if the physical manifestation of that sex and the role expected is seen in the genitalia and isn't the actual genitalia per se.

I don't know Datun. I suppose I'm assuming that dysphoria is more about sex/genitals/biology than it is about gender roles. Based on nothing other than my own experience and thinking about it so I might be totally wrong.

I wanted to be a boy when I was younger and that was definitely a gender role/stereotyped thing because I perceived boys to have a more exciting time than girls but I didn't hate my body and my femaleness per se.

I think that attitude prevailed into my early 20s until I met a group of lesbians and discovered there was another framework to slot those feelings into.

Now, I'm a happy woman expressing my gender in a more masculine way. I was never trans and I was never dysphoric because I had one set of feelings based on gender roles and not the other based on a rejection of biology.

tygr

As a result of transgenderism I have seen untold women (mainly) say the same thing. Horrified that they would've been considered trans-when children.

And it seems to be getting worse. With the consumer lead Pink/blue product development over the last decade or so gender roles seem to becoming more entrenched. Plus the child-centric parenting giving rise to 'special snowflakery'.

Makes me feel old. And quite thankful, in hindsight that most parents during my childhood practised something of 'benign neglect', for the most part.

About halfway through now..one huge sticking point for me, and this has been since the very beginning..its all about stereotypes. All these kids..want to play with barbies. Want long hair. Want to wear dresses and such. How the fuck does that mean they are trans and its a good idea to line them up for sterilization from the age of 4? Its annoying me a lot.